Has Club Racing Gotten Too Aggressive?
08-03-2010, 11:57 PM
#76
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Ernie - the accident at T2 resulted from a broken toe link on a cup car. Right rear - not the driver's fault. Still after the racing was done, apparently 17 cars left on flat beds.
08-04-2010, 12:36 AM
#77
Burning Brakes
"Houston...we have a problem".
Ladder system.
Even the vintage guys (SVRA, HSR or whatever they've transmogrified into, etc) make the guys in the uber-cars prove some proficiency before allowing them to race.
This isn't class warfare. It's not about $. It's about experience. Don't expect a noob in a 400hp car to do anything to brighten up the weekend. Somewhere on the net, there is a video of a Corvette ZR1 @ a NASA weekend at WGI last fall...noob...total noob...and he managed to stuff it in a wall for somewhere north of 6-figures. WTF are sanctioning bodies thinking ? WTF are race schools telling people ? Can you blow smoke so far up someone's *** that they actually believe that they're capable of racing equipment like that with ZERO experience ?
08-04-2010, 12:39 AM
#78
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And hopefully all of those who deserved it got a 13 so we won't have to worry about them... Oh, that's right, the 13/13 rule doesn't work and that just means that some other rich guy with a Cup car will take their spot and start wrecking people too....
Maybe PCA should institute a policy where everyone has to declare their net worth before a race so we can know who sucks before the race starts since apparently skill level has an inverse correlation to net worth and/or car value.
Reminds me of the line from Pink Floyd song, "there's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me, get him up against the wall...."
Maybe PCA should institute a policy where everyone has to declare their net worth before a race so we can know who sucks before the race starts since apparently skill level has an inverse correlation to net worth and/or car value.
Reminds me of the line from Pink Floyd song, "there's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me, get him up against the wall...."
08-04-2010, 12:51 AM
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Der Professor Helmut Tester, you are my hero!
Bob, I'm like suspicious about that broken toe link.
I had the chance to drive in the 2 run groups at that race and it was my first PCA club race (second race overall in my entire life). I was not that fast in both run groups.
I did about a total of 15-16 laps in the red run group on Friday and I got hit in the 2nd practice session. The other driver got a 13/13. IMHO, he could have ovoided that penalty if he had given me a little more respect (and room). Why clip my front end when I'm at the apex, during a practice? I just think it was useless. After that, my car broke down (my fault).
Then a very nice friend of mine lended me his 924 (prepped for the 944CUP) for Saturday and Sunday. What a difference. I saw the same level of "race aggression" but I also saw respect. I was quite happy to drive with them, lots more than with the Cup cars. I think I did a good job in the yellow run group too as a rookie.
And I had SO MUCH FUN driving a 924. Are we doing this to have fun? I think so. And I did.
After seeing that expensive pile up in turn 2, I can't imagine myself there, wrecking such a car. Most probably, many of these owners didn't worked hard on their cars, but they ALL must have worked hard somewhere else to get that kind of money to spend on a such a race car. I am pretty sure that none of them wants to crash it. But they all have to remember that we are doing CLUB racing and not PRO racing (where's my 4$ trophy?). IT'S ALL ABOUT FUN. It did not look like fun out there... But I may be wrong...
c.
Bob, I'm like suspicious about that broken toe link.
I had the chance to drive in the 2 run groups at that race and it was my first PCA club race (second race overall in my entire life). I was not that fast in both run groups.
I did about a total of 15-16 laps in the red run group on Friday and I got hit in the 2nd practice session. The other driver got a 13/13. IMHO, he could have ovoided that penalty if he had given me a little more respect (and room). Why clip my front end when I'm at the apex, during a practice? I just think it was useless. After that, my car broke down (my fault).
Then a very nice friend of mine lended me his 924 (prepped for the 944CUP) for Saturday and Sunday. What a difference. I saw the same level of "race aggression" but I also saw respect. I was quite happy to drive with them, lots more than with the Cup cars. I think I did a good job in the yellow run group too as a rookie.
And I had SO MUCH FUN driving a 924. Are we doing this to have fun? I think so. And I did.
After seeing that expensive pile up in turn 2, I can't imagine myself there, wrecking such a car. Most probably, many of these owners didn't worked hard on their cars, but they ALL must have worked hard somewhere else to get that kind of money to spend on a such a race car. I am pretty sure that none of them wants to crash it. But they all have to remember that we are doing CLUB racing and not PRO racing (where's my 4$ trophy?). IT'S ALL ABOUT FUN. It did not look like fun out there... But I may be wrong...
c.
08-04-2010, 01:45 AM
#80
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I had the chance to drive in the 2 run groups at that race and it was my first PCA club race (second race overall in my entire life), I was not that fast in both run groups.
I did about a total of 15-16 laps in the red run group on Friday and I got hit in the 2nd practice session. The other driver got a 13/13. IMHO, he could have ovoided that penalty if he had given me a little more respect (and room). Why clip my front end when I'm at the apex, during a practice? I just think it was useless. After that my car broke down (my fault).
Then a very nice friend of mine lended me his 924 (prepped for the 944CUP) for Saturday and Sunday. What a difference. I saw the same level of "race aggression" but I also saw respect. I was quite happy to drive with them, lots more than with the Cup cars. I think I did a good job in the yellow run group too as a rookie.
And I had SO MUCH FUN driving a 924. Are we doing this to have fun? I think so. And I did.
After seeing that expensive pile up in turn 2, I can't imagine myself there, wrecking such a car. Most probably, many of these owners didn't worked hard on their cars, but they ALL must have worked hard somewhere else to get that kind of money to spend on a such a race car. I am pretty sure that none of them wants to crash it. But they all have to remember that we are doing CLUB racing and not PRO racing (where's my 4$ trophy?). IT'S ALL ABOUT FUN. It did not look like fun out there... But I may be wrong...
c.
I did about a total of 15-16 laps in the red run group on Friday and I got hit in the 2nd practice session. The other driver got a 13/13. IMHO, he could have ovoided that penalty if he had given me a little more respect (and room). Why clip my front end when I'm at the apex, during a practice? I just think it was useless. After that my car broke down (my fault).
Then a very nice friend of mine lended me his 924 (prepped for the 944CUP) for Saturday and Sunday. What a difference. I saw the same level of "race aggression" but I also saw respect. I was quite happy to drive with them, lots more than with the Cup cars. I think I did a good job in the yellow run group too as a rookie.
And I had SO MUCH FUN driving a 924. Are we doing this to have fun? I think so. And I did.
After seeing that expensive pile up in turn 2, I can't imagine myself there, wrecking such a car. Most probably, many of these owners didn't worked hard on their cars, but they ALL must have worked hard somewhere else to get that kind of money to spend on a such a race car. I am pretty sure that none of them wants to crash it. But they all have to remember that we are doing CLUB racing and not PRO racing (where's my 4$ trophy?). IT'S ALL ABOUT FUN. It did not look like fun out there... But I may be wrong...
c.
the race start video, is not uncommon in racing. not a prob in my mind.
but hitting ppl during practice.....
we west coast ppl must be very tame then.
08-04-2010, 02:46 AM
#81
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yep, Rylan just after a few of his bolt on mods, and the Gen 1 RX7 was a very light 13B, and a great driver, Bob Bradfield. Usually beats everyone, if its wet at all. The e36, is euro trash like most of the hopped up versions run 285 rwhp, 2500lbs, with David Smith at the helm. (now runs the PTG like M3)
08-04-2010, 11:03 AM
#82
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08-04-2010, 11:55 AM
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Well all I can say is that "Cup Car people" are really not all that bad people. Yes we have figured out a way to either be lucky sperm or smart at something but I would not call that a bad thing. If you want net worth summaries prior to racing is that before Obama’s taxes or after? If it is after then everyone will be driving Cup Cars b/c you are entitled to it.
I would definitely say that ALL PCA classes have some bad apples or a car or two who thinks that they might be hired for next year F1 Testing.
If you look at the progression of the Grand-AM racing or ALMS racers, you see a large number of PCA racers within the ranks. The PCA Class has done an incredible job developing teams and drivers over the years, better then any other sanctioning body. The PCA Class puts a number of very different cars all together at the same time and allows them to race within reason. We can not fault the current system with the 13/13 rule, it works.
As for the Red Run Group and crashing, I have been to a number of bigger races where ALMS / Grand AM, Cart and other international race Teams have sent semi-pro and pro drivers to our little Club Race Weekend to get seat time and practice. I think that we should be proud of our cars, our class and the opportunity that we have to do this and not nit-pick one group or the other.
I have a piece of paper in my trailer that has a list of weekend goals. It says on the first line, “Have fun”. Yes I often have full track support and coaching; but I change my own tires, brakes, oil and I can fix my car. Can I afford to have someone else do it yes. But that is why I am here to have fun.
I would definitely say that ALL PCA classes have some bad apples or a car or two who thinks that they might be hired for next year F1 Testing.
If you look at the progression of the Grand-AM racing or ALMS racers, you see a large number of PCA racers within the ranks. The PCA Class has done an incredible job developing teams and drivers over the years, better then any other sanctioning body. The PCA Class puts a number of very different cars all together at the same time and allows them to race within reason. We can not fault the current system with the 13/13 rule, it works.
As for the Red Run Group and crashing, I have been to a number of bigger races where ALMS / Grand AM, Cart and other international race Teams have sent semi-pro and pro drivers to our little Club Race Weekend to get seat time and practice. I think that we should be proud of our cars, our class and the opportunity that we have to do this and not nit-pick one group or the other.
I have a piece of paper in my trailer that has a list of weekend goals. It says on the first line, “Have fun”. Yes I often have full track support and coaching; but I change my own tires, brakes, oil and I can fix my car. Can I afford to have someone else do it yes. But that is why I am here to have fun.
08-04-2010, 11:57 AM
#85
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From PBOC Rules:
PASSING RESPONSIBILITY
3.9 A NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE TRACK
3.9 B NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE TURN
3.9 C NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE LINE
3.9 0 BLOCKING IS NOT ALLOWED IN PBOC
3.9 E In PBOC Racing, one line change is allowed when appropriate to defend position, however, multiple line
changes, weaving and other forms of deliberate blocking are not allowed and shall result in black flag or one lap penalty
3.9 F The responsibility to pass safely in a turn rests with both drivers.
3.9 G The passing driver must realize that he has an advantage over the lead driver. The passing driver has a better
view of the car in the lead, than the driver in the lead car has of the passing car.
3.9 H The driver of the car in the lead has an obligation to remain as aware, as possible, of passing vehicles and
conduct himself in a safe and sportsman like manner.
3.9 I If a defensive line is to be used, it must be established well in advance of the approaching car.
3.9 J On a straightaway, the overtaken driver shall remain aware of all passing vehicles and shall not attempt to block
or impede the progress of passing car(s).
3.9 K If a car establishes position (equal side by side) with another car, before the "turn in point", then the cars share
the corner. They coexist and give racing room to each other.
3.9 L If a car establishes a partial side position (less than nose to nose) with another car before the "turn in point", then
the lead driver will leave enough room for the other car to safely get thru the corner. Most corners and most situations
allow for coexistence when the overtaking car has established reasonable, but not complete position.
3.9 M However, the overtaking driver is responsible to know which corners and which situations are reasonable for
coexistence and which are not. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the driver in
the lead not seeing him.
3.9 N Coming into a turn the overtaking driver must realize if he does not have any part of his car along side the lead
car and he can not complete a safe pass he needs to be ready to "back out" if necessary to avoid contact.
3.9 0 If a slower car is being lapped or passed by faster traffic, it is courteous for the driver in the slower car to
Never raced with PCA. How do these passing rules compare to PCA- do you find terms like "share" and "coexist"?
PASSING RESPONSIBILITY
3.9 A NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE TRACK
3.9 B NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE TURN
3.9 C NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE LINE
3.9 0 BLOCKING IS NOT ALLOWED IN PBOC
3.9 E In PBOC Racing, one line change is allowed when appropriate to defend position, however, multiple line
changes, weaving and other forms of deliberate blocking are not allowed and shall result in black flag or one lap penalty
3.9 F The responsibility to pass safely in a turn rests with both drivers.
3.9 G The passing driver must realize that he has an advantage over the lead driver. The passing driver has a better
view of the car in the lead, than the driver in the lead car has of the passing car.
3.9 H The driver of the car in the lead has an obligation to remain as aware, as possible, of passing vehicles and
conduct himself in a safe and sportsman like manner.
3.9 I If a defensive line is to be used, it must be established well in advance of the approaching car.
3.9 J On a straightaway, the overtaken driver shall remain aware of all passing vehicles and shall not attempt to block
or impede the progress of passing car(s).
3.9 K If a car establishes position (equal side by side) with another car, before the "turn in point", then the cars share
the corner. They coexist and give racing room to each other.
3.9 L If a car establishes a partial side position (less than nose to nose) with another car before the "turn in point", then
the lead driver will leave enough room for the other car to safely get thru the corner. Most corners and most situations
allow for coexistence when the overtaking car has established reasonable, but not complete position.
3.9 M However, the overtaking driver is responsible to know which corners and which situations are reasonable for
coexistence and which are not. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the driver in
the lead not seeing him.
3.9 N Coming into a turn the overtaking driver must realize if he does not have any part of his car along side the lead
car and he can not complete a safe pass he needs to be ready to "back out" if necessary to avoid contact.
3.9 0 If a slower car is being lapped or passed by faster traffic, it is courteous for the driver in the slower car to
Never raced with PCA. How do these passing rules compare to PCA- do you find terms like "share" and "coexist"?
Last edited by Ritter v4.0; 08-04-2010 at 12:24 PM.
08-04-2010, 12:57 PM
#86
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You won't see a lot of this language in PCA. However, PBOC doesn't have a 13/13 or they certainly don't enforce it. IMO, it's one of the more irresponsible organizations out there. I got t-boned in the 6 hour race last year and nobody wanted to hear about my incident report and no one wanted to penalize the other driver. I also had a friend have to spend a couple days in the hospital earlier this year after being taken out by someone and totalling his car. Neither driver was given a 13 or suspended. The PBOC license is relatively easy to get....
That might change things?
08-04-2010, 02:30 PM
#89
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08-04-2010, 02:40 PM
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Yeah, he used "Depends" to pee over the 25hour race too! He is a great guy and a great stick. I have gone toe to toe many times with him. Him bumping me in the short sections while my HP gets me away on the longer straights, and we have a good time. If he had a little more HP, we could really have even more fun, as I post faster times, but only due to my power advantage. But, the first laps are always exciting with him! However, I consider myself a pretty decent rain driver, but this guy has tallent. I would not do this for anyone else Ive seen on the track, but i would pay *(yes, help sponsor) to see Bobcat (bob bradfield) run a WC touring car race that was in the rain. He would run away with it. He is that good. He would put on a clinic