GT3 Techno

No another one. White Cup car with red GT3 logos on it. The green car spin at Mosport was the result of the chaos at the Sprint #2 start... nothing he could do as he didn't see what was going on in front.

Bob Rouleau

Torontoworker - wow. Thanks for the insight. I am surprised that the organizers do not listen to flaggers. I find flagger input (assuming experienced people) invaluable.

RickBetterley

Thank you for this one; I was stunned at the loss of driving sense by this driver. He was fine in his track car but once in the Panamera - like a novice.
Sorry if this hurts some feelings, but he was driving so far below the expected level of advanced DE, I thought I was back in real green.
I am making this observation not to be critical of the driver (heck, if I was on track with a new $130kUS sedan, I'd be tentative too) but because I wonder about event control when I see this happen. Based on torontoworker's observations, it sounds like flaggers call in these kinds of issues.
What happens next?

93 FireHawk 968

This is a very interesting thread. Soooooo much drama for 1 weekend.

Rick

Great post.

I'm curious...it seemed to take far too long to put out the double yellow due to the white car referenced above sitting at the outside of turn #3...it seemed to me to be in a rather dangerous situation and I believe I completed 4 full laps before the double yellow was brought out.

Any insights into why it took so long to go double yellow?

Cheers,

Rick

Torontoworker

This I don't know. I don't know if you mean double yellow or single steady yellow? I saw a single steady yellow and then a waved yellow for a few minutes and then back to steady yellow again for the rest of the race. I asumed the waved yellow was for the driver getting out or a worker over the wall at the car - but then I heard the driver never got out at all and stayed in there so I don't know what was going on with the flags. I do know that the car in question went by me slowly and within 20 secs the yellow was brought out at cor 3 - so there WAS a yellow flag shown right away.

I don't want to question the person on com for cor 3 as I didn't SEE the car postion nor could I hear what was siad on the land line. However: Sometimes you have to be forceful to get a car moved that you feel is in a bad area. It's all on *how* you tell race control. When I want a car moved (I've been captain at F1 races, CART/Champ Car/Indy Car/ALMS etc in the past), I never fail to get my way. (Never get my way at home - but at the track I do!)

I pizzed off Paul Cook (2nd under Charlie Whiting in F1 at Montreal) one year at cor 8 in Montreal with the following line when I wanted a car removed from drivers left just before the apex with 10 minutes left in a Canadian Formula Ford Final Qual: "I am formerly requesting that this session be red flaged and this car be removed as it is sitting in a dangerous position." Responcse = "Noted" After another 30 seconds.. Me: "Ok Central, Cor 8 now transfers responsibility for this car and driver over to you" 10 seconds later... RED FLAG. I got reamed a new hole that night but I shut him up when told him he made the right move based upon the right advice from me. He just blinked and walked away. I will not be disposed by a lawyer because I F'ed up!! Let race control take the heat for their own poor judgement I say.

There are ways to make race control see it 'your way' - but you have to be willing to force the issue instead of allowing race control to waffle away from towing a car. Given half a chance and without the corner forcing them (unless it's a no brainer like stalled center track) they don't like full course yellows - they would rather leave cars that are out of the way under a yellow. But.... this little bit prego status of no tow but we'll keep it yellow for the whole race... well I'm not going to make any friends here (not that I care) but it smacks of inexperiance on the part of the chief stewart.

As far as the Panamera in Green run group: FYI: He came off the course at the end of the second apex in 2A and all I heard was the PASM system kicking in as he drove across the grass! Thats the only thing that kept him out of the tire wall - and it did a good job too. It may be a fast car in a straight line - but it looked like a Chevy Tahoe out there through the corners. I'm willing to bet he doesn't take it on the track again. (crossing fingers)

As far as workers commentating on drivers: Yes, we do it but without sarcastic comments! A few used to say funny things over the phones concerning *some* slower drivers but it's not welcomed any longer. We call in the lack of mirror use for sure and of course all contact and or 2/4 wheels off which ever the series wants. And we talk about who is fast or looks good out there. We always look for window nets, dragging parts, fluids, brake lights out etc. and call this in.

We'd rather call in a 'suspected' fluid leak and you have to come in and have it checked out then you (or someone else) 'find' out about the fluid as you enter 5A... So don't hate us if you get meatballed and there isn't anything wrong!!

spare tire

I do not race due to the risk of my car and wallet, but I want to. I have watched and helped at PCA club races and hung out at the paddock with friends and heard plenty of complaints about not leaving people racing room. Slamming the door when my front tire is ahead of your rear tire. Forcing a 4 wheels off for somone else when you do not have to is not necessary. Since everybody runs video, all incidents should be reviewed by all drivers to see who pays for who's car repairs. If you dive bomb someone and T-bone his rear wheel because you couldn't stop.. Sorry just doesn't cut it. I do not have a problem with racing risk, dropped fluids, tire falures, mechanical failures. It 's the stupid stuff. The red mist stuff.
By the way , here is the bill for the armco that you wrecked, here is the bill for the guys car that you took out, and you can get a volume discount from PMNA on your next cup car.

BrandonH

Two weekends ago at the SCCA National at Beaver Run I spent the weekend in the company of two ~75 yr old guys who have been active in racing their whole lives. They regaled us with tales of the SCCA in the 60's. You flat-towed behind a station wagon. It was before the the age of slicks, and they raced a whole season on Goodyear BlueDots. If you were dicing with someone and they went off, you'd slow down and wait for them so you could continue to dual and have fun.

Somehow, as this thread illustrates, we've lost something here.

Second thought that I don't think has come up: (ok I didn't read it _all_)
I think there is a big role that safety plays in racing attitudes. Back in the 60's a crash often meant serious injury or death. Have you seen the Youtube videos of Laguna Seca in that era? Guys die routinely. That reality can't help but have added some 'maturity' to drivers' attitudes...

Glen

Wrote this 3 years ago...same issues today...except no more single car 13. So clearly the club has and is listening to constructive ideas.

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...ht=chopblocker


The recurring idea that is helpful is simply get the idiots on film. Carry Your data card to the tower and show it to the steward, if You cant, have Your wife, friend etc... take it up so You dont miss Your next session. Please do it before they use the rear of the car as a weapon. Everybody gets one move prior to corner entry, 2,3,4 per entry, not so much....

fatbillybob

I don't think so...look for new guys to race with. In June with SCCA I worked my butt off to help a guy faster then me to get his car fixed so he could race. If I did not help him I would be way ahead on points. He is my closest rival. We fought his car all weekend not having the right parts but having a kluge of parts. We got him running. He beat me handily but I had a great weekend. When I race with my local Alfa club many of the field are trying to get cars working. We all share tools and help each other get to racing. Then the racing is good clean fun. Later we lie to each other at dinner how we could have got by each other. It only takes a few guys to ruin a great sport.

M758

Couple things here.

1) Video does not show it all. In car video is good for certain things, but lack pereiphial vison. So from a lead car you can't tell what is along side in most cases. You might be able to tell from the following car, but not always. Video is just one too and it can be inconclusive.

2) Paying for damages is never a realistic approach in club racing. I have no hope of paying for someones wrecked cup car. I can't afford that and I know it. That is why a race cheap car. Now you could say that makes me clear, but alot can happen on track I would never take the risk of being found at fault in wreck with cup car. I would rather not race. I can accept the finanical risk of my 944 and that is all. Heck I cannot even afford to repair some other guys totaled 944. He may have 12k in his car. Should wreck mine I can always take a year or two off to gather the time and money to fix my own car. I cannot wite a 5k check to any other racer and will not.



So if everyone does two things we will all be fine.

1) respect each other out there. Race hard yes, but remember it is for fun that we race not for prizes. If you win a race and have smashed up car it is worse that coming in 3rd with car you can take to the next race. So respect that we race for fun. Respect the other drivers on track and their cars an safety. Sure racing involves risk, but realize we all have familes to go back to.

2) Race what you can afford to write off and walk away from. Sure you maybe able to just barely afford a cup car because they have good resale, but remember it could wiped out any time. Don't race car you cannot afford to lose. Now don't expect it will be wrecked, but crap happens and you need to understand what can happen.

M758

This is the kind of atmosphere we support in 944-spec. We try to race as a family and pit together and support each other getting on track. We believe the more cars at a high pace working properly the better the racing. So when a guy goes down or is having issues we fellow 944 racers are there to help. We may get beat by this guy, but since out goal is not winning, but good racing it is better to get beat in good race than to win because the other guy never raced at all. Of course this sort of comraderie helps with on track driving as people naturally are less likely to screw over a friend or person they know on the track. Same goes for rules compliance. We we all help fix each others car cheating just not so cool any more. Of course it cannot solve everything, but it does go a long way.

As for bad apples... Yes they happen, but we try hard to not let one bad apple ruin the batch.

GT3 Techno

For 1) I agree, but unfortunately even if everyone will agree with that, when the green flag is seen, it doesn't look like everyone remember what has just been said during the drivers meeting...

For 2) I agree partly. You obviously have to be able to survive financially from a wrecked car, whatever car it is (944 or Cup Car)... but it is also the source of the attitude issues IMHO. If someone can wreck his car and order a new one without any feelings as soon as he is back in the paddock, it may be the reason why he doesn't really care about your comment # 1).

In car videos are not the solution to everything, but if they were more broadly posted (YouTube, forums, etc.), may be the drivers at fault would care a little more for comment #1). In racing **** can happen and sometime, nobody is at fault and even if there is someone at fault, nobody is perfect and anyone can make a mistake. That is why I also agree that paying for others damages is not realistic. It brings us back to the stupid moves that others mentionned.

dmwhite

no need for video to figure out that, you pay for the damage to the car you're driving (and any damage to track property)...

Torontoworker

Track property is covered* under PCA insurance. (Guardrails/tire walls and the like.) I think the regions buy the policy and get coverage for other issues such as hazmat teams showing up for clean up's in the pits when oil cooled 911's lose that loving feeling. Just kidding)

* Unless of course you try to drive a rig out the front gate with the ramp open and in the 'down' postion and you hit, (in this order) 1. The track cross over bridge (moving it 2 inches) and 2. Tear down the main entrance sign (and drag it out to about the registration building out on the main road) because you forgot about the two cly's that stick up above the top of the trailer about a foot or so when you leave the car ramp hanging out back.