View Poll Results: DOTs vs Slicks (Good stickey sprint race slicks)
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll
Tire performance Poll - DOT R6, R888, RA1 V700 vs slicks
03-20-2009, 06:33 PM
#2
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Here we go again..
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-20-2009, 06:40 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
03-20-2009, 06:53 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
03-20-2009, 07:08 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
If I kept track of the childish remarks you have made since I have seen you on the list, it would be greater than a 20 pager. Now, go back to coaching.
This is kind of a loaded question. (ya think?)
Heck so many variables, how do you really really know, other than feel.
even WCGT guys will run 2 seconds slower in the race, with no set up differences. some have a radical qual set up that can account for some of the diff. If set up is that important and different tires require different set up and styles, then DUDE, there is a laundry list of why this debate is doomed.
The guys I trust, with a lot of seat time and fast times compared to other top drivers, show that slicks are faster than DOTs by about 2 seconds. (good, fast slicks appropriate for the temps). some of those same guys have switched between hoosiers and toyos and havent seen that much of a difference.
Again, limited racer observations.
What are your thoughts?
Mk
This is kind of a loaded question. (ya think?)
Heck so many variables, how do you really really know, other than feel.
even WCGT guys will run 2 seconds slower in the race, with no set up differences. some have a radical qual set up that can account for some of the diff. If set up is that important and different tires require different set up and styles, then DUDE, there is a laundry list of why this debate is doomed.
The guys I trust, with a lot of seat time and fast times compared to other top drivers, show that slicks are faster than DOTs by about 2 seconds. (good, fast slicks appropriate for the temps). some of those same guys have switched between hoosiers and toyos and havent seen that much of a difference.
Again, limited racer observations.
What are your thoughts?
Mk
03-20-2009, 07:15 PM
#7
Still plays with cars.
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Mark allowing multiple choices does not seem to be an option so here goes:
Slicks are faster than DOTs by 1-2 seconds YES depending on the length of a lap.
R6 is faster than 888 or RA 1 - Hell YES
Slicks are faster than DOTs by 1-2 seconds YES depending on the length of a lap.
R6 is faster than 888 or RA 1 - Hell YES
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03-20-2009, 07:21 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
03-20-2009, 07:30 PM
#9
The choices in the poll are not mutually exclusive.
Hoosiers are faster than slicks for the first 2 laps - then just get out of the way. Hoosiers will take slicks on the start and will be able to maintain position for about 2 laps. Once the slicks are up to temperature, they will have at least a 2 second/lap advantage over the Hoosier.
Hoosiers are faster than slicks if the temperature falls outside the operating range of the slicks. On a cool day (in the 50s), my qualifying time on 20 heat cycle Hoosiers was almost identical to my race times on nearly new slicks.
In terms of low temperature, I would say the winner in the Toyo. Then a little warmer the Hoosier is faster. Then if it's a nice day, the slick is the fastest.
So it depends.
Hoosiers are faster than slicks for the first 2 laps - then just get out of the way. Hoosiers will take slicks on the start and will be able to maintain position for about 2 laps. Once the slicks are up to temperature, they will have at least a 2 second/lap advantage over the Hoosier.
Hoosiers are faster than slicks if the temperature falls outside the operating range of the slicks. On a cool day (in the 50s), my qualifying time on 20 heat cycle Hoosiers was almost identical to my race times on nearly new slicks.
In terms of low temperature, I would say the winner in the Toyo. Then a little warmer the Hoosier is faster. Then if it's a nice day, the slick is the fastest.
So it depends.
03-20-2009, 07:37 PM
#10
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Without multiple choices, there is no poll in this one.
My many years of experience has shown me that slicks are much faster than R-Compounds IN THE HANDS OF A DRIVER THAT IS ABLE TO USE THEM.
Hoosiers are much faster than the typical long-life R-Comps like Toyos, Nittos, MPSCs, etc.
The question "how much faster" really can't be answered with many variables being defined, like car setup, length of track, ambient conditions, track surface, etc. If a driver can't notice a difference between 80 - 120 wear rated R-comps vs. 40 wear rated R6s, or R6s and good slicks, it is the driver, not the tires that are limiting the difference.
Some people are very equal to Toyos.
My many years of experience has shown me that slicks are much faster than R-Compounds IN THE HANDS OF A DRIVER THAT IS ABLE TO USE THEM.
Hoosiers are much faster than the typical long-life R-Comps like Toyos, Nittos, MPSCs, etc.
The question "how much faster" really can't be answered with many variables being defined, like car setup, length of track, ambient conditions, track surface, etc. If a driver can't notice a difference between 80 - 120 wear rated R-comps vs. 40 wear rated R6s, or R6s and good slicks, it is the driver, not the tires that are limiting the difference.
Some people are very equal to Toyos.
03-20-2009, 07:39 PM
#11
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03-20-2009, 08:28 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
Hey, we agree.
nuf said.
sorry couldnt change the poll after the fact.
mk
nuf said.
sorry couldnt change the poll after the fact.
mk
Without multiple choices, there is no poll in this one.
My many years of experience has shown me that slicks are much faster than R-Compounds IN THE HANDS OF A DRIVER THAT IS ABLE TO USE THEM.
Hoosiers are much faster than the typical long-life R-Comps like Toyos, Nittos, MPSCs, etc.
The question "how much faster" really can't be answered with many variables being defined, like car setup, length of track, ambient conditions, track surface, etc. If a driver can't notice a difference between 80 - 120 wear rated R-comps vs. 40 wear rated R6s, or R6s and good slicks, it is the driver, not the tires that are limiting the difference.
Some people are very equal to Toyos.
My many years of experience has shown me that slicks are much faster than R-Compounds IN THE HANDS OF A DRIVER THAT IS ABLE TO USE THEM.
Hoosiers are much faster than the typical long-life R-Comps like Toyos, Nittos, MPSCs, etc.
The question "how much faster" really can't be answered with many variables being defined, like car setup, length of track, ambient conditions, track surface, etc. If a driver can't notice a difference between 80 - 120 wear rated R-comps vs. 40 wear rated R6s, or R6s and good slicks, it is the driver, not the tires that are limiting the difference.
Some people are very equal to Toyos.
03-20-2009, 08:40 PM
#14
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here are my selections:
-Of the DOTs, Hoosiers are 1-2 seconds faster than Toyo RA1s (at least 1-2 seconds, should be more on longer tracks)
and
-Hoosiers are faster than Slicks for the first 2 laps of a race
it's also worth mentioning that hoosiers arent the only game in town anymore in the fast DOT tire market...hankooks z214's and bfg r1's are as fast or faster than hoosiers...all 3 are much faster than toyos and are typically faster than slicks before the slicks come up to temp...
i pretty much agree with everything except the last part...in my experience, hoosiers/hankooks/bfgs are faster than toyos at any temp...shouldnt be surprising when you consider they are quite a bit softer than toyos....some of my fastest laps on hoosiers/hankooks/bfgs have been in cold temps...
also i dont necessarily agree that slicks are always 1-2 sec faster than hoosiers...some of the good ones might be, while some of them might not be
also, there are many different compounds of slicks so they should be (at least somewhat) faster regardless of ambient temp if you choose the correct compound...
-Of the DOTs, Hoosiers are 1-2 seconds faster than Toyo RA1s (at least 1-2 seconds, should be more on longer tracks)
and
-Hoosiers are faster than Slicks for the first 2 laps of a race
it's also worth mentioning that hoosiers arent the only game in town anymore in the fast DOT tire market...hankooks z214's and bfg r1's are as fast or faster than hoosiers...all 3 are much faster than toyos and are typically faster than slicks before the slicks come up to temp...
Hoosiers are faster than slicks for the first 2 laps - then just get out of the way. Hoosiers will take slicks on the start and will be able to maintain position for about 2 laps. Once the slicks are up to temperature, they will have at least a 2 second/lap advantage over the Hoosier.
Hoosiers are faster than slicks if the temperature falls outside the operating range of the slicks. On a cool day (in the 50s), my qualifying time on 20 heat cycle Hoosiers was almost identical to my race times on nearly new slicks.
In terms of low temperature, I would say the winner in the Toyo. Then a little warmer the Hoosier is faster. Then if it's a nice day, the slick is the fastest.
Hoosiers are faster than slicks if the temperature falls outside the operating range of the slicks. On a cool day (in the 50s), my qualifying time on 20 heat cycle Hoosiers was almost identical to my race times on nearly new slicks.
In terms of low temperature, I would say the winner in the Toyo. Then a little warmer the Hoosier is faster. Then if it's a nice day, the slick is the fastest.
also i dont necessarily agree that slicks are always 1-2 sec faster than hoosiers...some of the good ones might be, while some of them might not be
also, there are many different compounds of slicks so they should be (at least somewhat) faster regardless of ambient temp if you choose the correct compound...
03-20-2009, 08:44 PM
#15
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We don't know what we're talking about because the question is open ended and vague.
Here is my opinion, as I've expressed multiple places and that I'll express again since Mark seems to need to start a thread every time someone disagrees with him.
Hoosier R6's are much faster than Toyos. I have seen it on BMW's, Miata's, etc. There's a bigger difference between Toyo's and Hoosiers than there is between a Toyo and the top of the line "high performance street tires" that auto-xers are running in Street Tire classes. Hell, even the old treaded Kumho R-comps and the old treaded Hankooks (don't remember the actual model names) were faster than Toyo's.
There's not nearly as huge of a gap as some people want to believe between slicks and Hoosier R-comps if a car is setup well for each tire. We've had both on our car. While tire and sidewall construction is quite different, the amount of grip each can generate isn't all that different. The hardness of the compounds isn't all that different either, based on my own measurements. We've run Hoosier R-comps, Hoosier Slicks, Dunlop Slicks, Pirelli Slicks, and Yokohama Slicks on our car over the last two seasons, in multiple compounds.
The R-comps definitely come up to temp sooner. That would tend to point to them having a soft compound. They also tend to have very stiff sidewalls (in order to help add spring rate in showroom stock type classes I assume), which probably helps the tire surface to heat up quicker since it's doing all of the flexing and the sidewall isn't. In BMW CCA, some of it may also have to do with the cars running R-comps being heavier and running stiffer spring rates than the Mod cars that are running slicks. Slicks tend to stay more consistent after the first 3-4 "magic" laps for R-comps, which is what leads people to believe that slicks are much faster than the R-comps. Once the R-comps start to fall off, slicks are much grippier.
The new generation of "slick" style R-compounds being offered by Hoosier, BFG, Avon, Kumho, and Hankook are much faster tires than the other R-comps that have been the norm until recent years. We've seen it in club racing and in auto-x. The companies switched their attitude from designing a fast street tire with softer rubber for their R-comp offerings to designing a racing tire and then making it just barely pass the DOT requirements. These are "street" tires in name only. They are RACE tires, and as such, are very very fast.
People use Toyos as everyday driver street tires. You couldn't begin to do that on Hoosiers.
At some point I need to grab the data from NASA Nationals this past year where we ran Hoosier slicks and R-comps back to back so I can post it up what we saw. Next time I'll be around the race car is Easter weekend in April.
Here is my opinion, as I've expressed multiple places and that I'll express again since Mark seems to need to start a thread every time someone disagrees with him.
Hoosier R6's are much faster than Toyos. I have seen it on BMW's, Miata's, etc. There's a bigger difference between Toyo's and Hoosiers than there is between a Toyo and the top of the line "high performance street tires" that auto-xers are running in Street Tire classes. Hell, even the old treaded Kumho R-comps and the old treaded Hankooks (don't remember the actual model names) were faster than Toyo's.
There's not nearly as huge of a gap as some people want to believe between slicks and Hoosier R-comps if a car is setup well for each tire. We've had both on our car. While tire and sidewall construction is quite different, the amount of grip each can generate isn't all that different. The hardness of the compounds isn't all that different either, based on my own measurements. We've run Hoosier R-comps, Hoosier Slicks, Dunlop Slicks, Pirelli Slicks, and Yokohama Slicks on our car over the last two seasons, in multiple compounds.
The R-comps definitely come up to temp sooner. That would tend to point to them having a soft compound. They also tend to have very stiff sidewalls (in order to help add spring rate in showroom stock type classes I assume), which probably helps the tire surface to heat up quicker since it's doing all of the flexing and the sidewall isn't. In BMW CCA, some of it may also have to do with the cars running R-comps being heavier and running stiffer spring rates than the Mod cars that are running slicks. Slicks tend to stay more consistent after the first 3-4 "magic" laps for R-comps, which is what leads people to believe that slicks are much faster than the R-comps. Once the R-comps start to fall off, slicks are much grippier.
The new generation of "slick" style R-compounds being offered by Hoosier, BFG, Avon, Kumho, and Hankook are much faster tires than the other R-comps that have been the norm until recent years. We've seen it in club racing and in auto-x. The companies switched their attitude from designing a fast street tire with softer rubber for their R-comp offerings to designing a racing tire and then making it just barely pass the DOT requirements. These are "street" tires in name only. They are RACE tires, and as such, are very very fast.
People use Toyos as everyday driver street tires. You couldn't begin to do that on Hoosiers.
At some point I need to grab the data from NASA Nationals this past year where we ran Hoosier slicks and R-comps back to back so I can post it up what we saw. Next time I'll be around the race car is Easter weekend in April.