View Poll Results: DOTs vs Slicks (Good stickey sprint race slicks)
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Tire performance Poll - DOT R6, R888, RA1 V700 vs slicks
03-21-2009, 02:38 AM
#46
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i could have told you that
I've seen tracks change by 1+ seconds in the dry in a single day, much less over the course of the weekend and we've got folks making arguments about tires based on different cars on different days, and in some cases, different drivers.
03-21-2009, 03:01 AM
#47
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That poll is rediculous IMO because there can be 1-2 seconds between different slicks or different DOT's. If you're only reffering to easily obtainable slicks vs the fastest of DOT's, I'd bet an A6 can run with the best of them. But putting R888's in there is a joke. World Challenge GT3's would be tons faster on a supercup slick.
03-21-2009, 03:09 AM
#48
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I think that is the actual debate.
I dont buy that any same car on a hoosier can run faster on the 2nd race lap as you say as a slick. I would bet they might only be slightly closer, but still far away from the slick.
MK
I dont buy that any same car on a hoosier can run faster on the 2nd race lap as you say as a slick. I would bet they might only be slightly closer, but still far away from the slick.
MK
03-21-2009, 03:17 AM
#49
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you see there is a huge issue here on the list with ego and comprehension.
HP vs torque was ONLY about the fact that there are engines that can have more accelerative forces at the same speed with less peak engine torque than another with equal HP. This is fact. Yes, I am an expert in the field.
Tires. This poll was to move a senseless argument from another thread to this one to see if anyone thought a slick could be as fast as a DOT at any point in a race. Also, to see if others felt as I do, that the difference between DOT tires is only in the second range, not 2 or 3 as some have mentioned.
Sure, as I said, it depends (My favorite, and most appropriate term) on so many factors, its hard to list. Driver, track length, set up, etc etc.
Point is I dont think toyos are that bad. maybe 1 second at 1:30 track near you , and slicks (not DOT) and ones designed for conditions, are probably 2-3 seconds faster on any lap. Again, stop getting so personal. Its my opinion.
HP to torque ratios in regards to NET force to the pavment, that discussion is factual.
mk
HP vs torque was ONLY about the fact that there are engines that can have more accelerative forces at the same speed with less peak engine torque than another with equal HP. This is fact. Yes, I am an expert in the field.
Tires. This poll was to move a senseless argument from another thread to this one to see if anyone thought a slick could be as fast as a DOT at any point in a race. Also, to see if others felt as I do, that the difference between DOT tires is only in the second range, not 2 or 3 as some have mentioned.
Sure, as I said, it depends (My favorite, and most appropriate term) on so many factors, its hard to list. Driver, track length, set up, etc etc.
Point is I dont think toyos are that bad. maybe 1 second at 1:30 track near you , and slicks (not DOT) and ones designed for conditions, are probably 2-3 seconds faster on any lap. Again, stop getting so personal. Its my opinion.
HP to torque ratios in regards to NET force to the pavment, that discussion is factual.
mk
OMG ! This is actually even worse !
Hey Mark you are amazing. A second difference at what track, with who driving, and what type of car ? It really doesn't matter, I am sure you will adjust your graphs/charts, etc to suit your point.
To anyone that reads these posts, the previous hp/tq debacle or anything on the Internet for that matter, please please please take what you read with a grain of salt, a large grain. Take peoples opinions that are truly proven to be experts in their field, use good sense. Also please keep in mind that many of us tend to have great sense of humors and poke fun at others when quite possibly we shouldn't since this public forum may not always be taken by all as it is meant. Some of us in here tend to enjoy playing with it in a sarcastic comic relief type of way that many may not interpret correctly. Some just use it as a challenge to see if we can promt others into getting to a certain page count, myself included in the above.
I am sorry for poking fun at you Mark, I am sure you mean well, but please consider the questions you ask being within a reasonable comparison. I will try to contribute in a better more productive fashion from now on and in doing so I would encourge you to rewrite your poll as to a certain track or approx mile track. 1,2, or 4 seconds is much different depending on which track you are driving on. A experienced driver that has driven slicks before will have a much different impression over a rookie that has been on them once.
I apoligize in advance if I regress to my previous humorous self.
Hey Mark you are amazing. A second difference at what track, with who driving, and what type of car ? It really doesn't matter, I am sure you will adjust your graphs/charts, etc to suit your point.
To anyone that reads these posts, the previous hp/tq debacle or anything on the Internet for that matter, please please please take what you read with a grain of salt, a large grain. Take peoples opinions that are truly proven to be experts in their field, use good sense. Also please keep in mind that many of us tend to have great sense of humors and poke fun at others when quite possibly we shouldn't since this public forum may not always be taken by all as it is meant. Some of us in here tend to enjoy playing with it in a sarcastic comic relief type of way that many may not interpret correctly. Some just use it as a challenge to see if we can promt others into getting to a certain page count, myself included in the above.
I am sorry for poking fun at you Mark, I am sure you mean well, but please consider the questions you ask being within a reasonable comparison. I will try to contribute in a better more productive fashion from now on and in doing so I would encourge you to rewrite your poll as to a certain track or approx mile track. 1,2, or 4 seconds is much different depending on which track you are driving on. A experienced driver that has driven slicks before will have a much different impression over a rookie that has been on them once.
I apoligize in advance if I regress to my previous humorous self.
03-21-2009, 03:22 AM
#50
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Again, that was the point. How much faster would world challenge be on real slicks? How much faster on Hoosiers DOTs. Did you see the video of Seth and Clay at Sebring in the club race? guy on slicks had a hard time keeping up. Sure, driver is important, but the R888s are not all that bad. Again, I would guess that they are 1 second slower than hoosiers on a 1:30 track.
Guys, again, thats a guess. (no factual information here other than my own personal experience on my cars and those around me, or ones Ive worked with, that have switched from hoosiers to slicks, hoosiers to toyos and toyos to slicks all on the same day.)
Mk
Guys, again, thats a guess. (no factual information here other than my own personal experience on my cars and those around me, or ones Ive worked with, that have switched from hoosiers to slicks, hoosiers to toyos and toyos to slicks all on the same day.)
Mk
That poll is rediculous IMO because there can be 1-2 seconds between different slicks or different DOT's. If you're only reffering to easily obtainable slicks vs the fastest of DOT's, I'd bet an A6 can run with the best of them. But putting R888's in there is a joke. World Challenge GT3's would be tons faster on a supercup slick.
03-21-2009, 09:17 AM
#51
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Again, that was the point. How much faster would world challenge be on real slicks? How much faster on Hoosiers DOTs. Did you see the video of Seth and Clay at Sebring in the club race? guy on slicks had a hard time keeping up. Sure, driver is important, but the R888s are not all that bad. Again, I would guess that they are 1 second slower than hoosiers on a 1:30 track.
Guys, again, thats a guess. (no factual information here other than my own personal experience on my cars and those around me, or ones Ive worked with, that have switched from hoosiers to slicks, hoosiers to toyos and toyos to slicks all on the same day.)
Mk
Guys, again, thats a guess. (no factual information here other than my own personal experience on my cars and those around me, or ones Ive worked with, that have switched from hoosiers to slicks, hoosiers to toyos and toyos to slicks all on the same day.)
Mk
You said that likes it's rather insignificant. Driver and setup is EVERYTHING.
If you watched a World Challenge race in person you can visibly see/hear the GT cars feathering throttle all the time. I've watched hours of speed GT at Road Atlanta and then ALMS and you never see any ALMS GT2 cars stepping sideways in 10b. It's very easy to see that the WC cars would be much faster on ALMS tires. I'd venture to say they'd go from the 1:25's-1:26's they run now all the way to 1:22-1:23 or faster. And that's on a high speed track. Send them to barber and the tire gap would be even bigger. Those cars overpower those tires like crazy. And not only that, but the turning precision on that R888 compound isn't great either.
03-21-2009, 09:55 AM
#52
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BTW, I agree with the remainder of your post. Who would ever use humor or sarcasm to make a point?
03-21-2009, 10:00 AM
#53
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This poll is flawed! Which slicks? Hoosiers slicks... your kidding right!!! Dunlops will smoke Hoosiers @ wglen before the busstop any day. 1st out lap!!!! I've drivin the both and there is no comparision. 3-4 seconds a lap @ WGlen. Why drive toyo"s unless you have too!!!
Slicks are like CRACK!!! And I'm never Going Back!!!!!!
Slicks are like CRACK!!! And I'm never Going Back!!!!!!
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03-21-2009, 10:02 AM
#54
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Even back-to-back testing on the same car is not quantifiable to the extent that you think it is because Hoosiers and Slicks are different tires. They require different suspension settings, shock settings and possibly spring rates to get the best out of them, so when you slap on those Slicks, you may not be getting the true measure of what they really can do when optimized.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
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Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
03-21-2009, 10:03 AM
#55
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.................
Guys, again, thats a guess. (no factual information here other than my own personal experience on my cars and those around me, or ones Ive worked with, that have switched from hoosiers to slicks, hoosiers to toyos and toyos to slicks all on the same day.)
Mk
Guys, again, thats a guess. (no factual information here other than my own personal experience on my cars and those around me, or ones Ive worked with, that have switched from hoosiers to slicks, hoosiers to toyos and toyos to slicks all on the same day.)
Mk
03-21-2009, 10:03 AM
#56
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03-21-2009, 10:08 AM
#59
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Oh look: it's a grandpa love-fest.
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03-21-2009, 10:56 AM
#60
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It is really tough to quantify the difference, so the best we can do is extrapolate and estimate. I felt that difference between our cars was not that great (except for the weight which you have to allow for) and the driving is similar (seeing how Bob and I raced head-to-head for years in Carreras) so the difference in times was informative.
Even back-to-back testing on the same car is not quantifiable to the extent that you think it is because Hoosiers and Slicks are different tires. They require different suspension settings, shock settings and possibly spring rates to get the best out of them, so when you slap on those Slicks, you may not be getting the true measure of what they really can do when optimized.