View Poll Results: DOTs vs Slicks (Good stickey sprint race slicks)
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Tire performance Poll - DOT R6, R888, RA1 V700 vs slicks
03-21-2009, 11:16 AM
#61
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And one other thing for this thread - SLICKS AIN'T SLICKS! Just like there are big differences in R compounds, there are big differences in slicks. I ran Pirellis for a few years because they were cheap, lasted a decent amount of time (stable performance over ~12 heat cycles) and were reasonably faster than Hoosiers. Though I know that the Yoks were a little faster, and the Michelins and Dunlops a lot faster, I could only guess as to what the time difference would be. I was discussing this very subject with Norm Goldrich a few years ago and he told me that with Dunlops he could consistantly see 1.7 G's in cornering with his 993 GT2. Running the Pirellis the best he saw was 1.56 G's. How did that relate to specific lap times....the Dunlops were faster! 
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
03-21-2009, 12:19 PM
#62
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03-21-2009, 12:51 PM
#63
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03-21-2009, 01:36 PM
#64
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It is really tough to quantify the difference, so the best we can do is extrapolate and estimate. I felt that difference between our cars was not that great (except for the weight which you have to allow for) and the driving is similar (seeing how Bob and I raced head-to-head for years in Carreras) so the difference in times was informative.
Even back-to-back testing on the same car is not quantifiable to the extent that you think it is because Hoosiers and Slicks are different tires. They require different suspension settings, shock settings and possibly spring rates to get the best out of them, so when you slap on those Slicks, you may not be getting the true measure of what they really can do when optimized.
Even back-to-back testing on the same car is not quantifiable to the extent that you think it is because Hoosiers and Slicks are different tires. They require different suspension settings, shock settings and possibly spring rates to get the best out of them, so when you slap on those Slicks, you may not be getting the true measure of what they really can do when optimized.
I raced a year on Sport Cups and switched to Hoosiers on a cool race day and Actually went slower. (1.5 sec slower @ WGlen) Hard to believe!
You have to fry (over drive) the Sport cups to get enough heat in them so they will stick. The right entry speed for the Sport cups I found is when you can feel a slight push on turn in... rotate the car with a slight lift , then lock it down.
03-21-2009, 03:49 PM
#65
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[QUOTE=Veloce Raptor;6403983]Dunlop slicks are the bomb. Much better than the Yokos or even the Michelins that I have driven.
What compounds are you comparing? Aare the Dunlops good over a wider range of temps than Michelins?
What compounds are you comparing? Aare the Dunlops good over a wider range of temps than Michelins?
03-21-2009, 03:58 PM
#66
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Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 03-21-2009 at 04:24 PM.
03-22-2009, 01:10 AM
#67
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what about pirelli slicks. they are supposed to be good too, but Ive noticed that when guys have them heat cycled a bit, they becomes stones. Ive driven an older set of good years that were pretty slick, but better than hoosiers. Just not as good as newer slicks.
mk
mk
03-22-2009, 01:15 AM
#68
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Thats a major factor as well. a couple did and a couple didnt, expecially with the hoosier to toyo change. even if they did change, I would bet there is a learning curve on what to do with the different tires to make them work optimally. Bryan could have had some of this, if he saw a hoosier turn a better time on the first couple of laps to the hoosiers until temp. If you look at most of the slick racing groups ( as we speak, "slicks" obviously means non-DOT), they run their fastest times , often times, on the 2nd lap.
mk
mk
03-22-2009, 01:24 AM
#69
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But, no one that i know that has done this, hasnt seen an immediate gain with a good slick. the only real issues Ive seen is bad wear issues if not setup properly. Of if slick to Hoosier was the move, (which i havent witnessed that much) the hoosiers wont work as well as the suspension usually requires a softer set up.
I can say that ive run with some guys for 5-6 years now and follow their equipment changes and, obviously their times and peformance at all parts of the tracks we race at. when times differences are usually measured in 1 or 2 tenths, sometimes Hundreths of seconds, if they put on a hoosier vs a toyo or visa versa and I dont see much gain in any area, its a data point I remember and have used in my opinions expressed here.
There are so many factors, I agree. even top drivers will have different styles that might favor a certan type of tire, in a DOT class range. But, I do think that a top slick is a huge jump to any DOT tire. regardless of first lap or not.
One thing I really like about the toyos is that they show decent grip on the outlap. hoosiers, i remember were pretty slick until they got hot. the toyos are great when its cold or the track is very hot. It seems they are more predictable, albeit not as quick, than the hoosiers, but also dont fall off when you are racing at 120F as much.
mk
I can say that ive run with some guys for 5-6 years now and follow their equipment changes and, obviously their times and peformance at all parts of the tracks we race at. when times differences are usually measured in 1 or 2 tenths, sometimes Hundreths of seconds, if they put on a hoosier vs a toyo or visa versa and I dont see much gain in any area, its a data point I remember and have used in my opinions expressed here.
There are so many factors, I agree. even top drivers will have different styles that might favor a certan type of tire, in a DOT class range. But, I do think that a top slick is a huge jump to any DOT tire. regardless of first lap or not.
One thing I really like about the toyos is that they show decent grip on the outlap. hoosiers, i remember were pretty slick until they got hot. the toyos are great when its cold or the track is very hot. It seems they are more predictable, albeit not as quick, than the hoosiers, but also dont fall off when you are racing at 120F as much.
mk
It is really tough to quantify the difference, so the best we can do is extrapolate and estimate. I felt that difference between our cars was not that great (except for the weight which you have to allow for) and the driving is similar (seeing how Bob and I raced head-to-head for years in Carreras) so the difference in times was informative.
Even back-to-back testing on the same car is not quantifiable to the extent that you think it is because Hoosiers and Slicks are different tires. They require different suspension settings, shock settings and possibly spring rates to get the best out of them, so when you slap on those Slicks, you may not be getting the true measure of what they really can do when optimized.
Even back-to-back testing on the same car is not quantifiable to the extent that you think it is because Hoosiers and Slicks are different tires. They require different suspension settings, shock settings and possibly spring rates to get the best out of them, so when you slap on those Slicks, you may not be getting the true measure of what they really can do when optimized.
03-22-2009, 01:27 AM
#70
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Ive heard all sorts of things about the slicks that Grand Am runs, and the Hoosiers that GS Koni runs. (sure, they are dot-like, but are supposed to suck. truth, or excuses? I dont know for sure)
Now, as you say, slicks come in ALL sorts of flavors. the ony choice that any one has with DOT brands, is hoosier. they do have an A vs R series.
Slicks have all sorts of different compounds to choose from . Ive always wondered at what hardness would they be equal to a hoosier for example.?
Now, as you say, slicks come in ALL sorts of flavors. the ony choice that any one has with DOT brands, is hoosier. they do have an A vs R series.
Slicks have all sorts of different compounds to choose from . Ive always wondered at what hardness would they be equal to a hoosier for example.?
And one other thing for this thread - SLICKS AIN'T SLICKS! Just like there are big differences in R compounds, there are big differences in slicks. I ran Pirellis for a few years because they were cheap, lasted a decent amount of time (stable performance over ~12 heat cycles) and were reasonably faster than Hoosiers. Though I know that the Yoks were a little faster, and the Michelins and Dunlops a lot faster, I could only guess as to what the time difference would be. I was discussing this very subject with Norm Goldrich a few years ago and he told me that with Dunlops he could consistantly see 1.7 G's in cornering with his 993 GT2. Running the Pirellis the best he saw was 1.56 G's. How did that relate to specific lap times....the Dunlops were faster!
03-23-2009, 11:22 AM
#71
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03-23-2009, 11:39 AM
#72
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03-23-2009, 12:37 PM
#73
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our club racing out here , rarely has thick, lap time effecting traffic on the last few laps. lap traffic happens between lap 4 and 10 after that, you can see times stablize out to best times. However, then you get into the trade offs of tires going away, weight going down, and maybe even fatigue for some, setting in. The point is, the slick times are still much better on the 1st 2 laps than any hoosier will perform. later in the race when all the tires are to temp, the top times are hit on occasion depending on the group, driver and traffic.
Do you still really think a hoosier is better on the first 2 laps than a full slick? If you were going to do a WC qualifying and only were allowed 3 laps, (like time trial right? warm up, and 2 hot laps) YOU would choose a hoosier over a full racing slick if they let you ?
I find that very hard to imagine, but hey, you have seen the times!
m
Do you still really think a hoosier is better on the first 2 laps than a full slick? If you were going to do a WC qualifying and only were allowed 3 laps, (like time trial right? warm up, and 2 hot laps) YOU would choose a hoosier over a full racing slick if they let you ?
I find that very hard to imagine, but hey, you have seen the times!
m
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-23-2009 at 04:23 PM.
03-23-2009, 03:38 PM
#75
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and the other stupid C-Mod car that was holding me up in the first few laps...silver e36 from the northeast...i think you had some run ins with that car later in the year, lol