Why Do Some Racers Find It Important to Put Down DE
12-05-2008, 04:20 PM
#76
Drifting
Track support? Who needs it? Extra night of lodging? Unnecessary. I maintain that if you WANT to race, you can do it on the same budget as you run DE's. The differences between the two are minimal from a cost standpoint assuming you already have the car, truck, and trailer (which is my assumption since we discussing whether the current economy will drive racers into DE's to save $$).
That doesn't seem to apply in the case of moving from racing to DE in your race car. I'm asking very specifically about the idea of moving from racing your race car to DEing your race car as a means of saving money. Outside of a smaller tire budget, I can't figure out where I'd be saving any $$.
That doesn't seem to apply in the case of moving from racing to DE in your race car. I'm asking very specifically about the idea of moving from racing your race car to DEing your race car as a means of saving money. Outside of a smaller tire budget, I can't figure out where I'd be saving any $$.
DE is significantly cheaper for me than racing. DE entry fees are cheaper than race entry fees. In my group (POC) there is an additional $40 per race charged on top of the regular event fees, so $80 per weekend right there. Probably more since the race event entry fees are usually higher than DE groups anyway. Instructing in DE groups gives me more than twice as much credit towards future events than the race organizations do. You already mentioned tires, I don't want to start a race on marginal tires. If you want to be competitive racing you will want to do the practice on Friday before the event, I'd say it's a must if you haven't driven the track before, there's another $150-200 on your entry plus lodging and another vacation day. With one exception, all the tracks I race at are a minimum 3.5 hour drive each way so it isn't realistic to drive up morning of the event, unload, register, tech, race, and drive home. Due to a tighter budget I did a lot more DE events this year than racing events. I have a lot more fun racing but it costs me a lot more money too.
12-05-2008, 04:26 PM
#77
Race Car
FWIW, Lee Culpepper use to run the longest night (moroso/homesead) 24 hrs races in his spec miata, and drove it home after.. (all his races infact). even won his class one year.. pretty fast drover...
I think the biggest cost factor between racing and DE's is the time spent under the car... I'd spend maybe 40-60 hrs under a car before a race weekend... so I was damn sure nothing would break.
(one bad race could put me out of the championship hunt, and ruin a season...)
At a DE if I break, no biggie, I just pack up. and I'm not looking for that extra 1/2 second... in a 175hp car, running with 07 gt3's.... no worth the effort, is just for fun...
The other cost thing is spares... how many racers (vs DE'ers) bring a spare trans? prepped rotors, spare calipers, etc...
-One good thing about DE groups at race weekends is the clean up is much less... after a race group there typically seems to be some flat tows (or wreckers) to kill track time..
I think the biggest cost factor between racing and DE's is the time spent under the car... I'd spend maybe 40-60 hrs under a car before a race weekend... so I was damn sure nothing would break.
(one bad race could put me out of the championship hunt, and ruin a season...)
At a DE if I break, no biggie, I just pack up. and I'm not looking for that extra 1/2 second... in a 175hp car, running with 07 gt3's.... no worth the effort, is just for fun...
The other cost thing is spares... how many racers (vs DE'ers) bring a spare trans? prepped rotors, spare calipers, etc...
-One good thing about DE groups at race weekends is the clean up is much less... after a race group there typically seems to be some flat tows (or wreckers) to kill track time..
12-05-2008, 04:29 PM
#78
Nordschleife Master
DE's are usually a 2-day deal where races are 3-days which incur additional time off (work), an extra hotel night, extra trip expense, etc..
12-05-2008, 04:34 PM
#79
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You're kidding, right? So you don't want any feedback from DE'ers because they can't possibly know what they're talking about. Do you see how arrogant that sounds? It's that part of Racers that DE'ers do not like.
I apologize to you and any other racers if I've ever offered constructive critiques of your driving because as a lowly DE driver it's not my place to speak.
I apologize to you and any other racers if I've ever offered constructive critiques of your driving because as a lowly DE driver it's not my place to speak.
Now if you are commenting on how I am driving because I have someone else glued to my bumper, or I am trying to get past a car that is able to hold me off in the only places I can catch him, I think that you are out of your element.
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
12-05-2008, 04:46 PM
#80
Drifting
Most DE groups that run at Willow Springs charge $150 per day, so $300 for the weekend. The cost to race there is $365-395, plus $40 per race (1 per day), add in another $25 per day if you want to time trial. So you're looking at $145-255 more per event just to enter. Now if I want to instruct, the race groups gives me $50 per student per day in credit, the DE group gives me $30 per SESSION. So if I take 1 student for 4 sessions a day I get $140 additional credit in the DE group for the weekend than the race group. But since DE is less busy than a race weekend I can probably take two students and increase that to $380 MORE credit than the race group. So if you total it up it and include the credits, it costs me $145-$635 more to do a race weekend than a DE weekend at the same track in the same car. Also, the race group only lets me pay for 50% of entry fees with credits, the DE group allows me to pay for it all in credits. So if I take 2 students per day I can actually have all my entry fees paid for AND have left over credits for future events in the DE group.
12-05-2008, 04:54 PM
#81
Three Wheelin'
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I totally agree.
You're kidding, right? So you don't want any feedback from DE'ers because they can't possibly know what they're talking about. Do you see how arrogant that sounds? It's that part of Racers that DE'ers do not like.
I apologize to you and any other racers if I've ever offered constructive critiques of your driving because as a lowly DE driver it's not my place to speak.
You're kidding, right? So you don't want any feedback from DE'ers because they can't possibly know what they're talking about. Do you see how arrogant that sounds? It's that part of Racers that DE'ers do not like.
I apologize to you and any other racers if I've ever offered constructive critiques of your driving because as a lowly DE driver it's not my place to speak.
You do realize you are commenting on something you've never done? That's the issue. Most of the time it's the delivery. I'm not saying you were wrong with your comments.
I can assume frog legs taste just like chicken but until I try them, I won't know....
BTW, I was a DE'r this year. Nothing wrong with that...
G.
12-05-2008, 04:57 PM
#82
Three Wheelin'
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I can't say how George meant it, but I can tell you that you are only partially correct. If you see me running a qualifier and you want to suggest a line or technique that might save a few tenth's then let'r rip. You can know as much about driving fast from DE training as many racers do.
Now if you are commenting on how I am driving because I have someone else glued to my bumper, or I am trying to get past a car that is able to hold me off in the only places I can catch him, I think that you are out of your element.
Now if you are commenting on how I am driving because I have someone else glued to my bumper, or I am trying to get past a car that is able to hold me off in the only places I can catch him, I think that you are out of your element.
G.
12-05-2008, 04:57 PM
#83
What level of racing are we talking about here? I think you could race for fun on something close to a DE budget, but no matter what stage of the game, you are going to spend a lot more to be competitive.
12-05-2008, 05:01 PM
#84
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Fascinating thread, but I’m surprised I haven’t heard anyone with my perspective yet. I drive DE’s, but in the past I’ve done a lot of racing. Most of my life I raced motocross, with a lot of success in my younger days. I loved it but injuries and the realization that a profitable pro career was unlikely put an end to it.
I also raced shifter karts and jet skis, and enjoyed the success of winning there too. Winning a race is one of the greatest feelings possible. It’s a drug that racers are addicted to. That addiction is what will make a racer sacrifice everything to enjoy another taste of victory. I’m a racer through and through, and I’m susceptible to catching the racing bug. Now I have a wife and a new baby to support, and I know that getting into racing again would not be a good idea. So now I satisfy my “need for speed” at DE’s, which I’ve been “winning” for a while now. Although DE “wins” don’t compare to actual racing, its still a great time, and I’ve met great people there.
I haven’t noticed racer snobbery towards DE’s on this forum, but I have experienced it at DE’s. Often the racers that feel the need to act superior turn out to be **** poor drivers. I laugh at this type of person, thinking that they’re more of a “racer” than I am. I’ve also seen the “hot ****” DE drivers, and am careful not to get caught up in that.
Despite the logic, I can’t stop thinking about getting into racing cars. The barrier for me is cost. Not only the cost of a car and all the gear, but also the licensing. And then there’s the biggest cost of all - time. It would be selfish of me to start racing now, rather than spend those countless hours of race preparation with my 7 month old daughter.
Now that I’m taking DE’s more seriously, trying to shave fractions of a second off my lap times, I’m starting to think that time trial events might be the right place for me.
I also raced shifter karts and jet skis, and enjoyed the success of winning there too. Winning a race is one of the greatest feelings possible. It’s a drug that racers are addicted to. That addiction is what will make a racer sacrifice everything to enjoy another taste of victory. I’m a racer through and through, and I’m susceptible to catching the racing bug. Now I have a wife and a new baby to support, and I know that getting into racing again would not be a good idea. So now I satisfy my “need for speed” at DE’s, which I’ve been “winning” for a while now. Although DE “wins” don’t compare to actual racing, its still a great time, and I’ve met great people there.
I haven’t noticed racer snobbery towards DE’s on this forum, but I have experienced it at DE’s. Often the racers that feel the need to act superior turn out to be **** poor drivers. I laugh at this type of person, thinking that they’re more of a “racer” than I am. I’ve also seen the “hot ****” DE drivers, and am careful not to get caught up in that.
Despite the logic, I can’t stop thinking about getting into racing cars. The barrier for me is cost. Not only the cost of a car and all the gear, but also the licensing. And then there’s the biggest cost of all - time. It would be selfish of me to start racing now, rather than spend those countless hours of race preparation with my 7 month old daughter.
Now that I’m taking DE’s more seriously, trying to shave fractions of a second off my lap times, I’m starting to think that time trial events might be the right place for me.
12-05-2008, 05:22 PM
#88
Drifting
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I need to chime in on the track support, I am not a good wrench. My first race a piece of the suspension broke and all hell broke loose. My crew were able to fix it and I was good to go the next race that weekend. Furthermore I diddn't have to break a sweat. That matters when the west coast tracks are like 100+deg. If I diddn't have them i would have had to go home and still find someone to fix the car.
Every race weekend i see drivers under their cars when they should be at pre grid. My guys always go help them, but really what mental condition could you possibly be in, and how will that affect you in the race.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I've done it, I can change tires and bleed brakes etc. and can do a race solo. But my business has me traveling during the week so often i show up to the track fresh off a plane.
In that respect track support is priceless and the only way I can race.
To each his/her own, racing like many things can be done on a grass roots budget and the sky's the limit from there.
Personally, I'm TT'ing my GT3 for fun and the timed runs are amusing, since most people come out with fresh hooters for the timed run and old tires for the rest of the weekend. This i can do myself and the cost would be similar to race but personally If i race I want to win, and for that i need to be at my mental best, rested and focused. For that personally, I need help.
Every race weekend i see drivers under their cars when they should be at pre grid. My guys always go help them, but really what mental condition could you possibly be in, and how will that affect you in the race.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I've done it, I can change tires and bleed brakes etc. and can do a race solo. But my business has me traveling during the week so often i show up to the track fresh off a plane.
In that respect track support is priceless and the only way I can race.
To each his/her own, racing like many things can be done on a grass roots budget and the sky's the limit from there.
Personally, I'm TT'ing my GT3 for fun and the timed runs are amusing, since most people come out with fresh hooters for the timed run and old tires for the rest of the weekend. This i can do myself and the cost would be similar to race but personally If i race I want to win, and for that i need to be at my mental best, rested and focused. For that personally, I need help.
12-05-2008, 05:46 PM
#89
Nordschleife Master
I need to chime in on the track support, I am not a good wrench. My first race a piece of the suspension broke and all hell broke loose. My crew were able to fix it and I was good to go the next race that weekend. Furthermore I diddn't have to break a sweat. That matters when the west coast tracks are like 100+deg. If I diddn't have them i would have had to go home and still find someone to fix the car.
Every race weekend i see drivers under their cars when they should be at pre grid. My guys always go help them, but really what mental condition could you possibly be in, and how will that affect you in the race.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I've done it, I can change tires and bleed brakes etc. and can do a race solo. But my business has me traveling during the week so often i show up to the track fresh off a plane.
In that respect track support is priceless and the only way I can race.
To each his/her own, racing like many things can be done on a grass roots budget and the sky's the limit from there.
Personally, I'm TT'ing my GT3 for fun and the timed runs are amusing, since most people come out with fresh hooters for the timed run and old tires for the rest of the weekend. This i can do myself and the cost would be similar to race but personally If i race I want to win, and for that i need to be at my mental best, rested and focused. For that personally, I need help.
Every race weekend i see drivers under their cars when they should be at pre grid. My guys always go help them, but really what mental condition could you possibly be in, and how will that affect you in the race.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I've done it, I can change tires and bleed brakes etc. and can do a race solo. But my business has me traveling during the week so often i show up to the track fresh off a plane.
In that respect track support is priceless and the only way I can race.
To each his/her own, racing like many things can be done on a grass roots budget and the sky's the limit from there.
Personally, I'm TT'ing my GT3 for fun and the timed runs are amusing, since most people come out with fresh hooters for the timed run and old tires for the rest of the weekend. This i can do myself and the cost would be similar to race but personally If i race I want to win, and for that i need to be at my mental best, rested and focused. For that personally, I need help.
I had my very first race over Halloween and had it not been for the generosity of others and having track support, the broken axle fiasco I had during FRIDAY PRACTICE, would have led to my weekend being over. My guy had it fixed quickly and I only missed 1 of my 4 races. That could have really ruined my weekend and who knows, without track support I might have just packed it in and determined that racing wasn't for me. I ended up having the time of my life and ended up having two 4th places and a 1st place and can't wait for 2009!!!!!
Sure, most of the wrench turning stuff I can do, but an axle I cannot and the last thing I want to do is worry about anything other than driving and socializing on a race weekend.
12-05-2008, 05:48 PM
#90
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