gbaker

Amen, brother.

ZAPmobile

Guys many good points. But most of the points are why you race, not why some put down DE. Many of you came from DE, you have to start somewhere. So I would encourage DE drivers, not put them down. Many excellent drivers stay in DE for all sorts of reasons, so again, why put them down.

Bryan Watts

Again I ask, where is anyone putting down DE drivers as a whole? I see a lot of folks giving very specific reasons for putting down certain attitudes or certain DE drivers. On the thread that sparked this conversation, no one said anything negative about DE's or DE drivers before you launched into your defensive.

Also, I would ask, what makes DE such much cheaper that you have given up racing in favor of DE's? Tires are all I can come up with where we save money at a DE compared to a race, and you seem to take issue on the other thread with my suggestion that running Hoosiers at a DE is a bad idea as if it somehow means that DE's aren't as cool as races.

LVDell

Actually, we NEED those DE participants at a race weekend to help supplement the cost of putting on a race. It's far more expensive than anybody realizes and the economy is kicking every one in the ****. The DE solo groups that are at a race weekend do NOT interfere with your run time (I have been on both sides) and if anything it's great to get the "advanced solo" guys out to see what "real" racing is all about. I wouldn't have made the jump when I did had I not been one of those solo DE guys taking up your track time. When I saw the atmosphere, felt it, and then realized...."hey I think I would be good at this" that is when I made the jump. Glad I did but my wallet isn't

CJ, I think you hit the nail on the head. And this is the very reason I went racing. I was tired of "winning DE's" and wanted to know if I actually was competitive with these guys that are really racing. I went in with the midset that I wanted to to do my best and if I was not first, then being humbled would be a good thing to being me back for more and to try and get better.


It's cheaper because the of the expenses involved if you want to be competitive. Bryan, you should know that. Tires are the biggest expense. I know alot of guys that run R6's at DE's that either (a) run scrubs from racers and (b) if buying new R6's, they run them many HC"s longer than we would on a race weekend.

Then there is the cost of track support, the extra night of lodging, etc, etc, etc..

LVDell

Sorry Arnie....I didn't seem to answer your question

I would say that some racers feel it is important to put down the DE guy because:
1. insecure
2. irritated that a DE guy thinks they are the same and feels the need to say something

For me, DE isn't the same anymore now that I have crossed over to the dark side. But, with that said, I still enjoy the DE's for the simple fact that I have alot of friends that still only do DE and I enjoy spending the weekend with them. The other and very important reason I still enjoy DE is that I enjoy instructing. Of course, it's my profession by trade, but I still get a great feeling (a) giving back; and more importantly (b) watching a student "get it".

Bull

Exactly. None of the cars that I have used for DEs would have been competitive in their race class without further development, modifications, expense. Some wouldn't even be legal.

LVDell

Bob, it's the "etc, etc, etc" that gets us every time

Larry Herman

Some?

Bull

Quiet down!

Flying Finn

Real racers put down Club racers so Club racers have to put down DE'ers.
Then of course DE'ers have to put down AX'ers.

Who AX'ers put down I have no idea, maybe all of above?

Larry man, are you the man behind the mask (= mascot costume)?

I'm not sure but you have permanently inked that mascot in my head to be you so every times I see it, I think "look, that's Larry Herman".

Bryan Watts

But I'm specifically asking someone who is DE'ing their race car and took offense to a suggestion that running cheaper tires at a DE makes sense over running brand new Hoosiers. My suggestion to look for cheaper tires and not to run A6's at a DE is the post that was quoted to start this debate on the other thread.

As for the expenses of being competitive, if you're a person who is worried about being competitive, I don't at all understand how cutting back your budget to run DE's helps with that. You remove all competition at that point. Because I enjoy the competition, I'd much rather race an uncompetitive car on the same budget as I could run the same car at a DE. Racing is still more fun whether you are winning or not IMO.

The reason I stopped running DE's is because if I'm going to spend my limited budget going to the track, I'd rather spend it racing.

Track support? Who needs it? Extra night of lodging? Unnecessary. I maintain that if you WANT to race, you can do it on the same budget as you run DE's. The differences between the two are minimal from a cost standpoint assuming you already have the car, truck, and trailer (which is my assumption since we discussing whether the current economy will drive racers into DE's to save $$).

That doesn't seem to apply in the case of moving from racing to DE in your race car. I'm asking very specifically about the idea of moving from racing your race car to DEing your race car as a means of saving money. Outside of a smaller tire budget, I can't figure out where I'd be saving any $$.

I have nothing against DE's or DE drivers in general. I spent a few years running and instructing at DE's and a few more years instructing and racing. I'm just trying to sort out what sparked this thread since it seems to be in reaction to my post and get some clarification as to how, assuming the same dedicated car, running a DE saves money over racing.

007DT

OK a little off the subject line, but; I am hoping to race in the coming years (read: 2 assuming business picks up) thus far I have only been doing DE's. I enjoy it but feel like I'm almost ready to make that next step up. I recognize that racing is a step-up from DE'ing but I haven't felt inferior to racers, nor have I been made to feel inferior to them. I feel like I am a competitive DE'er that doesn’t make me an ******* or hot **** but I do think that means racing may be in my future? The attraction is there for me to race but what concerns me is two fold:

1. Additional Cost:
a. Bryan: you state that the only difference is the tires? Is it required (in Club Racing) to pull out new tires for a race weekend? Although slower does anyone race on Nitto NT-01's Albeit they won't be as fast, but perhaps "budget racing." Even if it was merely tires most DE cars are NOT legal for racing, cage, etc. etc, that brings cost back into the picture.


2. Final commitment:
a. Do you see many stock classes running cars that are tweeners? Street Legal, somewhat road worthy cars? Although 80% of my mileage now is on the track, I still like having the car that I "can" take on the road?

* Like most (serious) (I say serious because I've set-up my car for a track with safety devices, etc. etc.)DE'ers like myself, I like having my cake and eating it too. I have a HUGE desire to Race, but for now I can't jump off because I'm not ready to make that final commitment, as listed above.

M758

1) DE Guy = "I am a DE SUPERSTAAH!"
2) DE Guy = "I go 100% at DE and beat everyone!"
3) DE Guy = "I need hoosiers to keep up at my DE!"
4) DE Guy = "I drive super turbo 9xx. It has 650hp and I am greatest!"
5) DE Guy = "I was racing this guy in DE and he would not let me pass!"
6) DE Guy = "Racing is too expensive. That is why I DE my 997 GT3 on slicks!"
7) DE Guy = "I pass every one in my DE group. I am really fast!"

LVDell

Bryan, I'm not sure why you dig your heels in so hard. Racing IS more expensive than DE. No question about it. You almost seem to contradict yourself when you say you would rather be uncompetitive and race than do DE a the same budget. What racer doesn't want to be competitive?

As far as lodging? So you are telling me you roll in sometime on Friday without staying someplace Thursday night? Track support? you don't use any track support? Just a one man show?

va122

I have DE'd for years and then made the jump into racing and my whole world was shattered. From "winning DE's" (WTF, how do you win, unless you count top time of the day or whatever) to racing i found myself in the back of the pack from the front and had to WORK to get competitive, hell i thought some of the old guys can lap me in a tricicle. Then I met a couple pro racers and started training with htem, that opened my eyes to how much of a jump pro racing is over club racing.

My point it's all relative and the racers that put down DE's are probably pissed at the DE newbies with blue tape all over their cars talking smack to anyone who is in a 5ft circle how they "won" "broke a record" or "raced" someone or whatever. That's where i see the resentment coming fro.

I can only speak to myself and I can say that I worked HARD to go from the top of the DE charts to racing and surviving much less being competitive, and I'm still working on it. Financially, I can do a DE myself, but for racing I need a crew and track support, so there's the additional cost in addition to a new set of tires/brake pads etc etc for every race to get that last .5 sec to be competitive.

That being said I see DEs as fun and racing as work, but my goal is grand am and i work very hard for that goal. However, that being said I do not do DEs with groups that do not have open passing racer groups for the same reasons mentioned conga lines, no solo option, DE'rs taking it WAY to seriously and over driving unsafely to "win" bragging rights.

My 5 cents.