dgrobs

Peter, maybe I am reading you post wrong, but......

Not apples to apples here Coach.

Yes, both uphill.

Yes, both esses.

Yes, both very technical.

No to the degree of danger between the 2.

The esses (2-3-4) at The Glen are much more dangerous.

At VIR, an off through the esses is usually just an off, and maybe an impact if you try to save it. Maybe.

At Watkins, an off in the esses could (and usually is) catastrophic and very violent.

I witnessed, from directly behind, a GT4 go off between 2 and 3 a couple years ago (I should really say the driver lost control between 2 and 3. This happened right in front of me.) I was setting up on them for a pass coming out of 4.
What I witnessed when that driver lost control drifting over to 3 was one of the most violent things I have ever seen.
The car (and driver obviously) bounced from wall to wall like a pinball stuck between 2 hot bumpers. Car parts everywhere. The impacts were so severe that there were rotors rolling back down the esses. The car finally came to rest head first in the wall on the left at the beginning of the back straight.
As I slowly passed the wreck, the driver was slumped over the steering wheel and there was no movement whatsoever. I was thinking the worst. Thankfully, that was not the case. In speaking with the driver a year later, they still didn't remember a thing.
3, maybe 4 hard impacts in total. Remember, the Armco bottlenecks on you going up those esses at the Glen. Any off in those esses is most likely going to result in multiple, very violent impacts if you are at speed. In green, maybe not. In upper run groups at speed, or in a a race, an off in those WGI esses is not good.
I used to go WOT up those esses in my Cayman (but not in the GT3). I don't do that any more in either car. I know better.

At VIR, I am dancing the car up the esses, but I am pushing much closer to 10/10ths as I know an off in those esses is most likely just an off, to me anyway.

To me, the esses at Watkins are much more dangerous than the esses at VIR. Advantage VIR!!!

ProCoach

I’m not making comparisons in relative risk between the two sections. Everyone’s risk assessment is different, for sure.

I can tell you that over the last three and a half decades at The Glen and over two decades at VIR, a breathe, lift or lack of throttle (or whacking the throttle) at the wrong time, in the wrong place, in both those sections, can result in a significant incident.

I’m just saying people crash due to a crisis in confidence that upsets the car. Both places…

LuigiVampa

In my Cayman while driving the esses at WGI I used to shortshift because my shift point at redline would have been when the car was loaded and I would be taking my foot off the throttle to shift.

The first time I went at speed up the esses in my 991.1 I decided to short shift out of habit and almost became one of those people who wrecked their "new" car the first time they drive it. A cup does not like to be short shifted, which is something I wish I knew before driving for the first time.

ProCoach

Interesting, as the shifting in the 991 Cups is generally so quick that there is a seamless power delivery. As long as the throttle is down…

ProCoach

Sorry for taking an Esses/thrust positive detour on this thread.

I think there are discussions and personal deliberations like the one posted by the OP across a variety of clubs and groups.

LuigiVampa

If you are not close to redline, even with the throttle at 100%, there is a hiccup which unsettles the car.

After page 2 what the OP wanted is irrelevant.

JP66

Not that I like reliving my worst Red Mist race ever, but RL would only be half as entertaining as it is if we aren't able to share our mistakes as well as our progress. Skip to 8:20 for the highlights or low lights as it were, lol. I think this is partially an example of what you are talking about . . . of course it didn't help being way off line, and truthfully it probably started half a lap back when I got distracted by the SPB I had trouble passing.

mhm993

I’ve been the student, the advanced driver, the in car instructor and the coach standing at corners or in the lead car.

Yes, very talented or experienced drivers really benefit from data, corner. lead/follow and video coaching. Green weekend drivers who don't know the first thing about driving….not on your life.

But returning to the OP, I bust my chops keeping my student safe and provide fun education, as do all of my buddies. Pisses me off every time i hear about a lazy or foolish instructor.

SnP

Knowing how to drive and knowing how to instruct are two different skill sets

Pca needs to do a better job at teaching instructors how to instruct. It would also be nice to get something more than $25 for spending 4 30 minute sessions at speed with a student. PCA isn’t even paying minimum wage for our time.

That said, I thoroughly enjoy instructing and agree with others here who say the moment I don’t feel safe we pull off the track and talk about what’s going on

too many instructors can’t articulate to their students how to improve. Is it a failure to drive the line, is it that the driver is pounding the brakes and upsetting the balance of the car, is it a failure to dial the steering in slowly at first, a failure to throttle steer, is it situational awareness and a failure to respect other cars?

Aggressive drivers in high horse power cars can be managed but the instructor needs to know how to instruct, not just say ‘the driver is doing it wrong.’

ProCoach

True.

About PCA, that may be true with some Regions, but I can tell you that there are some VERY strong Instructor Training Programs in most of the Regions that I have experience with.

I don't think it's accurate or fair to make a blanket judgment.

Gary R.

CVR runs (well, ran, can't speak for the present) a fantastic DE Instructor Training program, it took Sean F. and I well over a year to go from start to PCA Nationally Certified.. but we might have been slow learners.

dgrobs

Yup….

I am in 2 separate “training” programs right now with 2 different regions, NNJR and Niagara. Both are very well taught with an emphasis on teaching and conveying your input and instruction while in the right seat, all the while stressing safety and learning. Not sure what regions are being referenced above, but that is def not my experience so far and I don’t expect that to change.

To paint every PCA region’s instructor program in that light is just false.

Agree with Coach here 100%.

stownsen914

I've never seen such a paltry incentive for instructing at a PCA event (or any other club for that matter). Maybe try a different region's or club's events?

ExMB

One thing I've noticed in this thread that PCA instructors in the NE regions seem to not understand that smaller regions, mostly located in the middle part of the country, not get the benefits they enjoy in their larger regions. They keep talking that they are giving back to clubs. But at the same time they keep suggesting to go to other region events, forgetting about the distances involved, to get better benefits. So I really have to wonder how many of those NE region instructors would instruct in those smaller regions since they are not getting the benefits they are used to at present. These smaller regions do the best they can. Think outside the box.

Here is a wonderful link for tracks. Compare the distances involved in other parts of the country. Tracks across the US

rant over

stownsen914

No offense intended