This is why I stopped Instructing at DE events
06-08-2021, 09:18 AM
#31
At Peachstate PCA's Road Atlanta DE last weekend, during an early morning classroom session for novice drivers, it was explained "what to do" if you got two wheels off. "Drive the car straight, resume control, then continue." One of the students took that at face value. Entering Turn 1, he felt the rear end of the car get loose, so he drove straight off the track (at a relatively low speed) directly into the kitty litter, where the car became stuck. Totally unnecessary, but the student can be excused for sensing something different in the car's performance and immediately invoking the morning lesson to "Drive the car straight."
But here's the problem,,,TWO problems, actually. I was instructing in the car directly behind the car that drove off track. It was a surprisingly low-speed off, and I assumed something had broken on the car. But when we completed the lap and came back around to the scene of the mired car (two+ minutes later), the instructor and student were BOTH OUT OF THE CAR, looking at the stuck wheels in the gravel pit. The session was then Black Flagged because the car was NOT OUTFITTED WITH A TOW HOOK. A minimum of one Tow Hook should be MANDATORY during any track event. And you should NEVER GET OUT OF THE CAR...unless it's on fire. The instructor should have known better.
But here's the problem,,,TWO problems, actually. I was instructing in the car directly behind the car that drove off track. It was a surprisingly low-speed off, and I assumed something had broken on the car. But when we completed the lap and came back around to the scene of the mired car (two+ minutes later), the instructor and student were BOTH OUT OF THE CAR, looking at the stuck wheels in the gravel pit. The session was then Black Flagged because the car was NOT OUTFITTED WITH A TOW HOOK. A minimum of one Tow Hook should be MANDATORY during any track event. And you should NEVER GET OUT OF THE CAR...unless it's on fire. The instructor should have known better.
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06-08-2021, 09:23 AM
#32
Burning Brakes
Regarding instructor shortage (at least of the good kind): I am a little surprised that PCA charges instructors for attending driving events, when all other car clubs and organizations that I know in the Northeast waive the attendance fee. The PCA instructor fee is reduced but still nonzero. It keeps the attendance fee for the other drivers slightly lower, of course, but it is still an oddity (not even the Ferrari club does that 
).
I don't think it actually makes a big difference, but it is still odd.
).I don't think it actually makes a big difference, but it is still odd.
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06-08-2021, 09:25 AM
#33
RL Community Team
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Originally Posted by PLNewman
At Peachstate PCA's Road
But here's the problem,,,TWO problems, actually. I was instructing in the car directly behind the car that drove off track. It was a surprisingly low-speed off, and I assumed something had broken on the car. But when we completed the lap and came back around to the scene of the mired car (two+ minutes later), the instructor and student were BOTH OUT OF THE CAR, looking at the stuck wheels in the gravel pit. The session was then Black Flagged because the car was NOT OUTFITTED WITH A TOW HOOK. A minimum of one Tow Hook should be MANDATORY during any track event. And you should NEVER GET OUT OF THE CAR...unless it's on fire. The instructor should have known better.
But here's the problem,,,TWO problems, actually. I was instructing in the car directly behind the car that drove off track. It was a surprisingly low-speed off, and I assumed something had broken on the car. But when we completed the lap and came back around to the scene of the mired car (two+ minutes later), the instructor and student were BOTH OUT OF THE CAR, looking at the stuck wheels in the gravel pit. The session was then Black Flagged because the car was NOT OUTFITTED WITH A TOW HOOK. A minimum of one Tow Hook should be MANDATORY during any track event. And you should NEVER GET OUT OF THE CAR...unless it's on fire. The instructor should have known better.
Same genius driver at the end of a following section slammed the brakes on the straight after getting the checked flag. At least this time I had more room to escape. The coordinators maintained their cool and did nothing. I have all that in video.
Last edited by John Mclane; 06-08-2021 at 09:26 AM.
06-08-2021, 09:25 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
At Peachstate PCA's Road Atlanta DE last weekend, during an early morning classroom session for novice drivers, it was explained "what to do" if you got two wheels off. "Drive the car straight, resume control, then continue." One of the students took that at face value. Entering Turn 1, he felt the rear end of the car get loose, so he drove straight off the track (at a relatively low speed) directly into the kitty litter, where the car became stuck. Totally unnecessary, but the student can be excused for sensing something different in the car's performance and immediately invoking the morning lesson to "Drive the car straight."
But here's the problem,,,TWO problems, actually. I was instructing in the car directly behind the car that drove off track. It was a surprisingly low-speed off, and I assumed something had broken on the car. But when we completed the lap and came back around to the scene of the mired car (two+ minutes later), the instructor and student were BOTH OUT OF THE CAR, looking at the stuck wheels in the gravel pit. The session was then Black Flagged because the car was NOT OUTFITTED WITH A TOW HOOK. A minimum of one Tow Hook should be MANDATORY during any track event. And you should NEVER GET OUT OF THE CAR...unless it's on fire. The instructor should have known better.
But here's the problem,,,TWO problems, actually. I was instructing in the car directly behind the car that drove off track. It was a surprisingly low-speed off, and I assumed something had broken on the car. But when we completed the lap and came back around to the scene of the mired car (two+ minutes later), the instructor and student were BOTH OUT OF THE CAR, looking at the stuck wheels in the gravel pit. The session was then Black Flagged because the car was NOT OUTFITTED WITH A TOW HOOK. A minimum of one Tow Hook should be MANDATORY during any track event. And you should NEVER GET OUT OF THE CAR...unless it's on fire. The instructor should have known better.
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daddyrabbit (06-27-2021)
06-08-2021, 10:21 AM
#35
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With me happened, In the same event, same car with the same instructor took to heart to slow down before the bends and practically stopped. I was already weary of this person and had a safe distance, which saved me. That was the only time I took over someone without sign. I went to the event coordinator along with two others that were just behind me to tel what happened. Very cool guy, did absolutely nothing.
Same genius driver at the end of a following section slammed the brakes on the straight after getting the checked flag. At least this time I had more room to escape. The coordinators maintained their cool and did nothing. I have all that in video.
Same genius driver at the end of a following section slammed the brakes on the straight after getting the checked flag. At least this time I had more room to escape. The coordinators maintained their cool and did nothing. I have all that in video.
Last edited by Gary R.; 06-08-2021 at 10:22 AM.
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NYoutftr (06-08-2021)
06-08-2021, 10:40 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
LOL at an instructor in the right seat "having control" over a student in the left seat. You can talk until you're blue in the face and that driver still may not listen to you or do the right things.
I stopped instructing for a number of reasons, the speed of the cars, the way I felt after riding all day in someones car and driving mine in summer heat, the relative lack of feeling appreciated. Local PCA has asked me to be an instructor several times but won't accept my driving resume and their training sessions are always in conflict with my military weekend duty. No worries, I don't think I'd do it anyways given the reasons I just listed and the fact I'd still have to pay for the majority of the entry fee myself.
There's zero incentive to instruct with PCA compared to other groups that completely waive entry fees, plus give you a credit for another event, plus give you free food/beverages/lodging...
I stopped instructing for a number of reasons, the speed of the cars, the way I felt after riding all day in someones car and driving mine in summer heat, the relative lack of feeling appreciated. Local PCA has asked me to be an instructor several times but won't accept my driving resume and their training sessions are always in conflict with my military weekend duty. No worries, I don't think I'd do it anyways given the reasons I just listed and the fact I'd still have to pay for the majority of the entry fee myself.
There's zero incentive to instruct with PCA compared to other groups that completely waive entry fees, plus give you a credit for another event, plus give you free food/beverages/lodging...
06-08-2021, 10:56 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Wow.. you said a bunch there. Your reasons for not instructing are valid but two things jump out at me. If you were not in control of the student you had no business being out there. Mechanicals, dumped fluid, etc. are not something you can really "plan" for but a student that does not follow my instructions gets pulled in. If he just doesn't understand what i'm telling him he gets pulled in and I try to explain in a different way while not under the duress of driving. Your "zero incentive to instruct" because you are not compensated statement says a lot, and its pretty sad that giving back to the club (and your former instructors) was not enough.
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Manny Alban (06-08-2021)
06-08-2021, 11:24 AM
#38
At Peachstate PCA's Road Atlanta DE last weekend, during an early morning classroom session for novice drivers, it was explained "what to do" if you got two wheels off. "Drive the car straight, resume control, then continue." One of the students took that at face value. Entering Turn 1, he felt the rear end of the car get loose, so he drove straight off the track (at a relatively low speed) directly into the kitty litter, where the car became stuck. Totally unnecessary, but the student can be excused for sensing something different in the car's performance and immediately invoking the morning lesson to "Drive the car straight."
But here's the problem,,,TWO problems, actually. I was instructing in the car directly behind the car that drove off track. It was a surprisingly low-speed off, and I assumed something had broken on the car. But when we completed the lap and came back around to the scene of the mired car (two+ minutes later), the instructor and student were BOTH OUT OF THE CAR, looking at the stuck wheels in the gravel pit. The session was then Black Flagged because the car was NOT OUTFITTED WITH A TOW HOOK. A minimum of one Tow Hook should be MANDATORY during any track event. And you should NEVER GET OUT OF THE CAR...unless it's on fire. The instructor should have known better.
But here's the problem,,,TWO problems, actually. I was instructing in the car directly behind the car that drove off track. It was a surprisingly low-speed off, and I assumed something had broken on the car. But when we completed the lap and came back around to the scene of the mired car (two+ minutes later), the instructor and student were BOTH OUT OF THE CAR, looking at the stuck wheels in the gravel pit. The session was then Black Flagged because the car was NOT OUTFITTED WITH A TOW HOOK. A minimum of one Tow Hook should be MANDATORY during any track event. And you should NEVER GET OUT OF THE CAR...unless it's on fire. The instructor should have known better.
06-08-2021, 11:24 AM
#39
Regarding instructor shortage (at least of the good kind): I am a little surprised that PCA charges instructors for attending driving events, when all other car clubs and organizations that I know in the Northeast waive the attendance fee. The PCA instructor fee is reduced but still nonzero. It keeps the attendance fee for the other drivers slightly lower, of course, but it is still an oddity (not even the Ferrari club does that ).
I don't think it actually makes a big difference, but it is still odd.
).I don't think it actually makes a big difference, but it is still odd.
Disclaimer: I have instructed with your region. No longer do due to extra requirement of having stay to end of day requiring extra day lodging on my part due to travel distance.
But I will make exceptions depending on how an event is (has been) conducted and/or what is asked of me vs offered: i.e. 1 student = OK, but 2 students = NO.
06-08-2021, 11:41 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
I still enjoy instructing.
I enjoying volunteering and teaching car control to novices. Its exciting and rewarding when it starts to come together.
I have had several instances where I told the student to back off and return to hot pits. Why. In introduction and getting to know each other I stress the importance of safety first, smooth is fast and go over hand and verbal signals etc... I stress for the newbie the importance of my commands. At anytime a command is not followed, at the time given we return to hot pits. I explain why. I have never had a student complain or argue with me. I love to race and have for 40 years winning some SCCA races in several classes. I only say this as it help the student understand the imput I am giving is to make them a better, smoother, faster and safer driver. At anytime they dont like my input please tell me. There are many good and some great instructors and some may wish to sit quietly and ride along. I am there to coach, not teach. I am there to first and foremost coach them on car handling, at speed safety and car control.
I think it is critical to coach up safety first.
If ever scared tap the knee and return to hot pits.
I also applaud any instructor that comes to the point its time to quit. The risk is real. The faster the track the risk increase The intermediate driver in a new to him fast car is the maximum risk.
Instructors should think about their level of risk and select the car and driver they feel safe with. If you cant, and still are scared time to hang up the gloves and helmet.
My perspective is a little different maybe. Having raced everything with wheels for a long time comes with not only crashes but total loss and hospital stays. Racing to win and with time everyone will. Its only how bad the damage. HPDE, short of a mechanical no excuse to spin or crash. Its not a race. No one wins. No hero awards. Check you ego boys and girls. We can set better expectations for drivers and lead by example as instructors.
Those of us that have experienced the risk in real time learn to respect it. That too is part of coaching new drivers that think their sim has taught them all they need to know and they are now ready have much to learn.
Keep the shinny side up!
I enjoying volunteering and teaching car control to novices. Its exciting and rewarding when it starts to come together.
I have had several instances where I told the student to back off and return to hot pits. Why. In introduction and getting to know each other I stress the importance of safety first, smooth is fast and go over hand and verbal signals etc... I stress for the newbie the importance of my commands. At anytime a command is not followed, at the time given we return to hot pits. I explain why. I have never had a student complain or argue with me. I love to race and have for 40 years winning some SCCA races in several classes. I only say this as it help the student understand the imput I am giving is to make them a better, smoother, faster and safer driver. At anytime they dont like my input please tell me. There are many good and some great instructors and some may wish to sit quietly and ride along. I am there to coach, not teach. I am there to first and foremost coach them on car handling, at speed safety and car control.
I think it is critical to coach up safety first.
If ever scared tap the knee and return to hot pits.
I also applaud any instructor that comes to the point its time to quit. The risk is real. The faster the track the risk increase The intermediate driver in a new to him fast car is the maximum risk.
Instructors should think about their level of risk and select the car and driver they feel safe with. If you cant, and still are scared time to hang up the gloves and helmet.
My perspective is a little different maybe. Having raced everything with wheels for a long time comes with not only crashes but total loss and hospital stays. Racing to win and with time everyone will. Its only how bad the damage. HPDE, short of a mechanical no excuse to spin or crash. Its not a race. No one wins. No hero awards. Check you ego boys and girls. We can set better expectations for drivers and lead by example as instructors.
Those of us that have experienced the risk in real time learn to respect it. That too is part of coaching new drivers that think their sim has taught them all they need to know and they are now ready have much to learn.
Keep the shinny side up!
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cbracerx (08-29-2022)
06-08-2021, 11:57 AM
#41
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I spoke to my fellow Instructor who where there when the silver GT4 crashed at the DE Event. and the owner of the car apparently was trying to set hot laps and overcooked it on corner exit and did two wheels off, panicked and went back on, then shot across and hit the jersey wall head on with a slight angle. Both airbags deployed, the car pivoted due to the impact, and then went rear end into the same wall. The GT 4 moved the Jersey Barriers on each impact, and there was no question the car was totalled. Then Summit Point does what it always does - send in the track's flat-bad wrecker, take it around to the back of the administration building and offload, then throw a tarp over it. Like it never happened. I'm sure both of them (student and instructor) will be feeling beat up the rest of this week, physically.
That's an awfully expensive car to write off, I sure hope people will learn they really have to buy track insurance - but many don't as its around $ 750 for a 2-day event with 10% Deductible.
I have a good friend who runs regional NASCAR events on circle tracks. He says "You Porsche people are crazy. You take these really expensive uni-body street cars out to the track and run them around and when they wreck the car is ruined and it costs a fortune to repair them. Our cars are tube frame, when we wreck, you just whack off the section with a cutting torch, weld a new one on and put on the sheet metal, and you're back racing the next weekend. Cost of a wreck is like $ 500, not tens of thousands." HA! And I thought those rednecks were stupid.......
That's an awfully expensive car to write off, I sure hope people will learn they really have to buy track insurance - but many don't as its around $ 750 for a 2-day event with 10% Deductible.
I have a good friend who runs regional NASCAR events on circle tracks. He says "You Porsche people are crazy. You take these really expensive uni-body street cars out to the track and run them around and when they wreck the car is ruined and it costs a fortune to repair them. Our cars are tube frame, when we wreck, you just whack off the section with a cutting torch, weld a new one on and put on the sheet metal, and you're back racing the next weekend. Cost of a wreck is like $ 500, not tens of thousands." HA! And I thought those rednecks were stupid.......
Last edited by drcollie; 06-08-2021 at 12:00 PM.
06-08-2021, 12:01 PM
#42
Standard PCA Tech Form (which is used by most regions) addresses...Helmet, Roll Bar & Cages, Seat Belts, Head & Neck Restraints, Structural Integrity, Doors, Windshield, Mirrors, Gas Cap, Fluids, Battery, Throttle Return, Belts, Brakes, Brake Fluid, Brake Lights, Pedals, Wheels, Lug Nuts, Wheel Bearings, Tires, Suspension, and Exhaust...but makes NO mention of tow hooks. In fact, after this incident, I strolled around my student's car and saw no tow hooks and realized that, as the instructor, I probably should have noticed this earlier. The student didn't know what a tow hook was...didn't even know that his car had a tool kit. We fished it out and installed the hook in the front bumper. (I'm sure he forgot to remove it at the end of the day and is still probably driving around Atlanta with it in place.)
Another of my pet peeves is brake lights that don't work. Apparently this is something that, despite being on the official PCA pre-event tech list, is not always checked during many on-site DE tech inspections. I have seen it done in some regions, but not all. At Road Atlanta last weekend, there were at least 3 cars in the Novice Group with non-functioning tail lights. All seemed pleased to know, when they were informed. But realistically, there was not much they could do to rectify the problem on a weekend at the track.
And, yes, I appreciate that most of these events are staffed by volunteers...and that volunteers are often hard to come by.
Another of my pet peeves is brake lights that don't work. Apparently this is something that, despite being on the official PCA pre-event tech list, is not always checked during many on-site DE tech inspections. I have seen it done in some regions, but not all. At Road Atlanta last weekend, there were at least 3 cars in the Novice Group with non-functioning tail lights. All seemed pleased to know, when they were informed. But realistically, there was not much they could do to rectify the problem on a weekend at the track.
And, yes, I appreciate that most of these events are staffed by volunteers...and that volunteers are often hard to come by.
06-08-2021, 12:49 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Wow.. you said a bunch there. Your reasons for not instructing are valid but two things jump out at me. If you were not in control of the student you had no business being out there. Mechanicals, dumped fluid, etc. are not something you can really "plan" for but a student that does not follow my instructions gets pulled in. If he just doesn't understand what i'm telling him he gets pulled in and I try to explain in a different way while not under the duress of driving. Your "zero incentive to instruct" because you are not compensated statement says a lot, and its pretty sad that giving back to the club (and your former instructors) was not enough.
Secondly, please don't disparage me for not "giving back". I give back plenty, as evidenced by multiple years of being tech chair and helping out the club in other roles. There's a difference between giving back and being taken advantage of, particularly with the risk factors involved of riding shotgun on the track. If a club is having issues getting and retaining good instructors then they need to be looking at how they're running their instructor program vs other clubs and make necessary changes.
Last edited by docwyte; 06-08-2021 at 01:08 PM.
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06-08-2021, 12:52 PM
#44
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I never said I wasn't in control of a student. I pointed out that those of you who THINK you're "in control" of a student, from the right side of the seat are deluding yourselves. Simply put, you're in the right seat and along for the ride, period. No matter how much you talk to the student, they're an independently thinking person, who IS in the control seat of the car. You're at their whim and mercy to do the right things if it hits the fan. That's NOT control.
Secondly, please don't disparage me for not "giving back". I give back plenty, as evidenced by multiple years of being tech chair and helping out the club in other roles. There's a difference between giving back and being taken advantage of, particularly with the risk factors involved of riding shotgun on the track. If a club is having issues getting and retaining good instructors then they need to be looking at how they're running their instructor program vs other clubs and make necessary changes.
Secondly, please don't disparage me for not "giving back". I give back plenty, as evidenced by multiple years of being tech chair and helping out the club in other roles. There's a difference between giving back and being taken advantage of, particularly with the risk factors involved of riding shotgun on the track. If a club is having issues getting and retaining good instructors then they need to be looking at how they're running their instructor program vs other clubs and make necessary changes.
06-08-2021, 01:15 PM
#45
BMWCCA/PCA Instructor here. I think its only going to get worse. The golden era of DE/Instructors is over, especially with the speed of modern day cars, and now covid. I pretty much stopped instructing a few years ago after a student took us headfirst into the wall on the outside of Turn 7 at Road Atlanta. (Thankfully thats the slowest part of the track, but I still had a sore neck for a couple weeks)
I dont know what the solution is, but clubs/organizers are going to need to get creative in terms of how they address this. I think lead/follow with some sort of car to car communication is a viable option, but not without its own set of challenges.
I dont know what the solution is, but clubs/organizers are going to need to get creative in terms of how they address this. I think lead/follow with some sort of car to car communication is a viable option, but not without its own set of challenges.
Last edited by Outlaw 06; 06-08-2021 at 01:26 PM.