btw, i will not instruct for a group that wants me to pay for my track time too. that is absurd.

 

Depends on the track. Instructing is about the only way to get a 3 day weekend at COTA for $200-250. Participants are generally paying about a kilo buck or more for the same weekend, depending on the event.

As the Chin website says, "because COTA:nobody drives for free!". Although I've attended 1 or 2 COTA one day DE events for free with WRL by instructing.

Other tracks not so much, I doubt I'd pay and instruct at MSRH, for example.

 

I understand that, from a clinical perspective.

I just don't think of a heightened level of awareness, which can be motivated by a positive level of anxiety, is a bad thing.

Caution, while wise also, already preordains a lower level of outcome, in my experience.

 

i mostly instruct at limerock, wat glen, nj motorsport, and pocono. at 60 yrs old, i will not run around rushing from my car to student etc and still pay a fee. instructing is work and i expect group im with to understand that. almost all do. only examples are some pca groups and very small, new private clubs. not for me

 

A better suited word here is courage. Courage is not the absence of fear, it is going ahead despite having fear. To not have at least some anxiety climbing into the right seat with a driver you don't know on a racetrack seems a bit foolish to me. Managing this anxiety starts with the preflight interview and progresses by managing and getting to know the student. The most important thing for the instructor to do is get inside that student's head as quickly as possible. Makes it safer, more productive, and more fun for everyone involved.

As instructors, we like to think we are driving the car from the right seat - but that link goes through the student. One experience with a real student from from hell teaches how tenuous that link can be.

From a practical point of view, this may be making a mountain out of a molehill. 99.9% of the time the anxiety is all but gone 30-60 seconds into the preflight interview as the vast majority of students are good.

 

Okay Doctor.

Not parsing words here just voicing my ever so humble opinion.

For ___ sakes

Fear, anxiety scared stop it already

PS. I never in a million years had the thought cross my Instructor mind that "we are driving the car from the right seat". Well, maybe if I had a steering wheel and three pedals also

 

True.

Heightened awareness when you get in the passenger seat, from wherever the wellspring for that is, is a darned good thing.

Scared is not an emotion or a response I have on track or at an event.

The OP said nothing about that either. Simply an examination of the risk/benefit ratio. He's not alone.

 

Correct.

But these three words seem to grow in this thread much as a chorus crescendo

Over and out

 

I’ve only ever had one student I thought was going to kill me

We got off track and the first question I asked him was, “would you like to go faster?”

rather than condemning him for red light racing the track I used this ego that was the basis for his bad driving to get him to listen to how to get the car to rotate in the corners with the pedals

by the end of the day he went from 2:40s at RADE to 2:34s, and he was getting the car to set in each corner without wrestling the steering wheel. No more pinching the corner, no brake stomping, no rumble strips on the out

if people choose to retire as instructors that’s fine, but blaming it on students is just a way to avoid admitting you’re getting old

in my view our job is to make drivers safer, faster, and grow the club

 

I want to reiterate my earlier point that right seat instruction isn’t necessary to teach high performance driving (or racing).

The first time I ever drove on a track was in a 1-seat, SCCA Spec Racer at Hawaii International Racing School (way back in 1996). I was a total “green” rookie. They gave some basic classroom instruction before letting the students rip SOLO around their road course at Hawaii Raceway Park. The instructors watched from the corner stations and provided feedback in the pit area. There was no in-car instruction, data or video analysis or anything like that. The same was true for the “old” Skip Barber Racing Schools that I attended (except for a few minutes of right-seat instruction during the skid pad exercises).

When my youngest son graduated from the ”new” Skip Barber 2-Day Advanced Racing School last year, the instructors still observed from the corner stations and provided feedback via radio and face-to-face in the pit area. There was no in-car instruction.

If professional coaches can safely and effectively instruct that way, then car clubs can do it to.

 

Hahaha! That's pretty funny.

Dude, we're ALL getting old. It's a "race" NO one "wins."

I do think age and experience bring wisdom and, especially in teaching, benefits in patience, focus, clarity, brevity and persistence. All necessary qualities for successful instructors.

You joined RL in 2005. The culture, and the cars attending the typical DE, have changed...

For that reason, I see long time instructors re-evaluating getting in the car. It's their choice. Only they can make that decision.

I'm encouraged by other aspects of the sport.

Arch-enthusiasts like dgrobs working towards being the best instructor he can be.

CVR, Potomac, Niagara, NNJR and many other fine programs really investing in instructor training and continuing education for instructors.

The more widespread adoption of video and other objective measures of a driver's performance, to coach others and coach themselves. Regions and chapters getting into this technology, because that's what people want and expect.

But make no mistake. The cars are now a LOT better than we are. People coming into this sport are high achievers in their own profession, business or discipline, and expect the same out of themselves having not even turned a wheel.

Be careful out there. Set the expectations. Define the goals and objectives of success in your terms for your students. There are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of success stories all over RL. We all want to keep those threads going.

 

Well said ProCoach.

Lots of judgement in the thread. Respectfully, I disagree with SnP^

Deciding to leave the right seat doesn’t necessarily mean “you’re getting old”. It simply means the risk is no longer worth the reward (and the reward varies by individual).

Lots of good advice in this thread too. Everyone is different. We all approach it with different goals, different perspectives. I wouldn’t presume to judge another person for saying they no longer want to instruct. To each their own. And maybe sometimes it IS the student that’s the reason for deciding to “leave”. I’ve had 95% good experiences in the right seat, but the other 5% were awful. And yes - I reel them in, I force them to pit, I give them a “talking to”, I’ve gone to the Chief Instructor when one obstinate A-hole wanted to kill us both and insisted since he rented the track he should be able to do what he wants (I later found he was a “student” of video games and didn’t quite grasp that unlike a video game, you can actually be injured or killed when you crash on a real race track). I didn’t quit after that ride but it sure gave me pause. I’ve had friends injured while instructing when their student crashes. I can totally understand deciding to stop due to a student, or students. I can also understand deciding to stop when looking at the overall increase in risk that has occurred with faster cars (yes, they’re safer too, but there’s not doubt the risk in the right seat is higher than it used to be).

If you’ve ever been in an accident (street or track) where you are injured, and must give up several months of your life to go through a variety of rehab - it REALLY makes you weigh the risk. And if you’re lucky enough never to have experienced something like that - then good for you (and try to keep it that way).

There are risks I was willing to take 10 years ago that I no longer accept. I’m at a different place in my life, I’ve experienced some scary **** and don’t care to repeat it, etc etc. Everyone evolves and reaches different phases of life. I can totally understand drcollie’s point of view. I may not share it - but I understand.

​​​​​​​

 

Whether the retirees support it or not I’m going to keep teaching young guys to drive safer and faster in their new cars

you guys can hang out here online complaining about the kids and their new fangled porsches that go too fast

We will see whether the best days of PCA are ahead of us or behind us

 

nope.
I write this all the time. Very talented drivers will excel with corner/data/follow instruction….For the rest of us, no way.

My first track experience was open wheel school with a very professional organization @Mosport. Didn't have a clue what they were trying to teach me; they didn't communicate sufficiently well with novices and I didn't improve much and that was that. A decade later I gave it another try, and patient pca right seat instructors taught me to drive. (I don't have much talent..I’m proof that with enough practice and some excellent coaching one can become “good enough”)

I think many of our peers and friends wouldn’t have become regular participants without right seats. I know I would not. That’s why I bust my chops in the right seat, and bust my chops developing new instructors.

 

Perhaps my use of the word 'cautious' was not correct, words like 'fear', 'anxiety' are also not correct as these reactions/emotions are always picked up by others, and the last thing I or anyone should want to do is to make the student even more uncertain.

I will say that the risks we are willing to take in our lives is different from person to person, I tend to have a high risk tolerance, so I can tolerate a student with a high risk profile as long as it is a studied risk, meaning that is is not driven or entirely driven by ego. One of my best sessions was to take an advanced student out in the rain/mist at NHMP - tight technical course, and he was on slicks or worn R compound tires - we both had a blast and it was reasonably safe other than we had no traction, I mean what could go wrong?

It also take a bit of seat time for me to understand how and what motivates my student. As we get to know one another better expectation and limits change.

I guess if I had to be concerned with something it would be ignorance. The young guy who shows up with a GT3RS and little to no real seat time has no idea of the capabilities or the dangers. In the past, I had decided for my self that if I hit 140-145 in a car, I needed to have a full cage. Those newer cars will do that with little to no effort, I had to change my model. That said, my job is to help the student safely finish the event with a bit less ignorance. The other is the green / yellow student who shows up with Hoosiers.

Ray - who can't get enough!