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__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
Miatas or other slow cars or fast cars don't cause conga lines. Conga lines have one cause: inattentive, unaware, or rude drivers who aren't giving point-bys.
In my experience, many Miata drivers are quite fast - like top of the run group fast. From your attitude, I highly doubt you could keep up with one in the turns. An experienced driver knows the Miatas are slow in the straights - the turns are where they shine against most cars.
One of the funnest sessions I had on a track was myself in my old E36 M3 and a friend in a Spec Miata at TWS. I would reel her in on the front stretch, get a point by and it was a game of how far I could stay up front in the twisty bits. We never held each other up, fourteen passes in 7 laps between us as well as other passes/being passed as was other traffic. We both managed to set personal bests as well.
Part of "Advanced" is the ability to drive off line. If your advanced groups aren't "working on that", then they aren't really advanced. You won't get into the White (highest non-instructor) run group in my region without being able to drive smoothly, quickly and safely off line. I start working with completing passes off line with my students as soon as I'm comfortable, which generally occurs when I'm about to promote them out of the newbie group.
Driver aids can give false confidence in ones ability because it could be the aids are all that are keeping the car on the track. Those driver aids allow a poor driver to wind the car up faster than their skills would otherwise allow. The better the driver aids and the higher the horsepower, the more ugly it is when the limits of the aids are exceeded.
As a side note, I also have to laugh at the high horsepower guys "being held up". What they don't realize is being held up in a Miata or lower horsepower car is a much bigger deal because it takes so much longer to build the momentum back up. The absolute worse thing for a leading car to do is hold up a Miata that is quickly gaining on them. When that Miata gets all over your ***, he has to slow down. When you finally give the point, it takes him forever to get by you and then he has to wind it all up again to get away from you.
Generally, the only way a high horsepower car is held up in the twisty bits by a Miata is when the high horsepower car is slow on the point by and steals the Miata driver's momentum. The reward for for this is following the Miata through the twisties and perhaps down the next straight. A prompt point by results in the Miata keeping his mo and the likelihood is he will be gone by the next straight.
It's all about situational awareness and cooperation out there.
From my attitude? You are the one posting meme's calling people names and making assumptions about driver skill.
And I see plenty of "slow" cars driven very quickly. smdh...
Here is a Spec Miata driven extremely well (red, d'oh) and a 997 GT3 Cup driven very well (blue, obviously) and their respective cornering speeds at VIR.
TWENTY SECONDS DIFFERENCE in lap times... 1:55 versus 2:15
No significant difference in corner speeds, except the Miata is faster in T1, T3 (by a lot) and Turn 10. A little slower at T12.
This time and speed comparison is good for the Glen, too. I see this ALL the time...
Moral is, don't assume a slow car is, in fact, slower. At least, where it counts...
Let’s take T1 here. You have the Porsche who is scrubbing way more speed than the Miata and will have more weight on the nose. You also have a heavier car which will then need to shift the weight back and sacrifice vmin or rolling speed for a better exit. Rolling more speed for a slower exit and delayed wot will cost laptime.
The Miata has the luxury of rolling more speed through through and keep a higher vmin due to not having the 911 challenges.
You can easily see the visual difference in the line plots of the 911 squaring off and the Miata opening up the exit early to keep speed up. Both are doing what they should be.
I know you know this so why you chose such a weird example is beyond me.
It’s important to look beyond singular measures. I have literally thousands of examples like this.
Now, a Sebring 12-Hour winner might (and has) eclipsed the Miata vMin. But that is only one small
part of the story.
Your assessment assumes an awful lot. I only showed what happened.
This example disproves point blank that “slower cars are slower than faster cars.” The Cup has more than twice the tire, has slicks, has better brakes and is not 1000 lbs heavier.
I’m one of the few that has such a broad section of data, collected over the course of decades, that shows that the laws of physics don’t know the difference between these two cars.
While the capability may be different, the actual measures are remarkably similar in the corners.
So, the argument that a Miata being perpetually the roadblock to those in a GT3 thirsting to “win the DE” at least in the corners, is simply a fallacy.
When I was in an instructed group, my instructor and me would discuss any approaching faster cars and plan where to let them pass where we would both lose the least amount of time. This is part of the learning experience in the instructed groups, isn't it?
Once I've run a session at a DE, I've an idea which drivers/cars are quicker than me and keep an eye out for them approaching so that I can plan where to let them past most efficiently. It's not affected my prize money and keeps me out of fights. We're all out there to have fun - well, that's my plan anyway!
If you don't get timely point bys, try chatting to your CDI if it is a recurring incident with a certain driver. Just don't pout and complain constantly. The CDI will typically have already noticed any conga lines.
Put it another way, you have a load of faster cars running 2:00 laps and a load of slower cars doing 2:25. How is that fun or safe for anyone? The slow cars are constantly having to drive in their mirrors, the fast cars are constantly in traffic.
^^^^^That attitude is pure newbie.
Originally Posted by Montaver
If Mr Miata wants to have fun through the turns (as he is entitled to do), he will and you will have to wait.
^^^^^That comment indicates lack of understanding of Miata car/driver dynamics. When driven properly, Miatas are relatively slow in the straights and fast in the corners - even faster than many megaHP cars.
Originally Posted by Montaver
From my attitude? You are the one posting meme's calling people names and making assumptions about driver skill.
Your attitude and understanding of the recent topic (this is Rennlist) implies you are new at this (hence the newbie comment) and your comment's about Miatas in turns implies a level of driver skill. The meme I posted didn't call people names, it was addressed directly to your comments. Frankly, your stereotype is showing and isn't new.
I recommend you hitch a few rides with your local hot shoes in the instructor run group and just observe how smoothly the passing flows. If you can, get a ride with a hotshoe Miata driver. If you are seeing conga lines in the top run group on your track days, bring it up with the CDI and if you can't get satisfaction, run with somebody else.
^^^^^That comment indicates lack of understanding of Miata car/driver dynamics. When driven properly, Miatas are relatively slow in the straights and fast in the corners - even faster than many megaHP cars.
Your attitude and understanding of the recent topic (this is Rennlist) implies you are new at this (hence the newbie comment) and your comment's about Miatas in turns implies a level of driver skill. The meme I posted didn't call people names, it was addressed directly to your comments. Frankly, your stereotype is showing and isn't new.
I recommend you hitch a few rides with your local hot shoes in the instructor run group and just observe how smoothly the passing flows. If you can, get a ride with a hotshoe Miata driver. If you are seeing conga lines in the top run group on your track days, bring it up with the CDI and if you can't get satisfaction, run with somebody else.
Doubling down eh. Why is it so difficult to have a discussion without resorting to name calling? I have a much more nuanced understanding than you, it would seem. Who do you instruct with and what are your credentials? I ask this so others can avoid you. Do share.
Nobody asked for your recommendation, but if it makes you feel better I drive in the instructor run group regularly.
If you're seeing conga lines in the instructor group, it's time to find a new group to DE with. Or is this just turning into another Rennlist bragging/name calling session?
It’s important to look beyond singular measures. I have literally thousands of examples like this.
Now, a Sebring 12-Hour winner might (and has) eclipsed the Miata vMin. But that is only one small
part of the story.
Your assessment assumes an awful lot. I only showed what happened.
This example disproves point blank that “slower cars are slower than faster cars.” The Cup has more than twice the tire, has slicks, has better brakes and is not 1000 lbs heavier.
I’m one of the few that has such a broad section of data, collected over the course of decades, that shows that the laws of physics don’t know the difference between these two cars.
While the capability may be different, the actual measures are remarkably similar in the corners.
So, the argument that a Miata being perpetually the roadblock to those in a GT3 thirsting to “win the DE” at least in the corners, is simply a fallacy.
They’re not corners. Your looking at a singular point in the corner and overselling it. vmin is not “corners.” The total time spent in the three phases of the corner is the corner. As I said, you can win the vmin war and lose the lap time battle.
At no point did the Miata match the cup through the duration of a corner. It had a crossover point and maintained a higher vmin for a momentary period, That’s all your telem shows.
At no point would the cup car be “held up” by the Miata because it can match vmin. The cup would simply out brake or out accelerate the Miata anywhere just as your data shows. Neither would the Miata be held up as it’d never be be in close proximity of the cup to where it’s higher minimum speed would be of any relevance.
At a recent event at Laguna Seca a slower car pulled off line as he saw me in mirrors. By doing so, he pulled right into the apex of the turn right as I would hit it forcing me to decide; A. Come harder on brakes and slow more than I wanted to and follow him through turn or B. Come off line, out in marbles and pass outside at speed but still much slower than a clean lap would be. Both would drop lap times by a a second or two.
Now, a little like a lighting strike true but much slower cars do in fact hold up much faster cars regardless of driver skills. The more slower cars the more these things happen.
We teach, coach really slower drivers please hold your line and faster cars will get around you. But we see these types of "helpful drivers" causing more trouble and ignoring our coaching at times than we would like.
Ummm you do know the Miata can not dive bomb into the because the GT3 is going that much faster down the straight. Their apex speed might be the same, but as soon as the GT3 gets on the gas. It is all over. 20 seconds is 20 seconds....
Regardless my original rant wouldn't be with this Miata because I know he is limited by HP, everything is predictable. On the other hand, I am scared of someone in a GT3 or GTS running 20 sec slower in the same advanced group!
06-27-2021, 04:09 PM
