RobertR1

This is fantastic and goes at the core of the issue which is two unknown quantities being bundled together at the drivers meeting and asked to make it work. What I’d typically observe on the west coast track days was the student and instructor being paired up post drivers briefing. That’s a lot of stress on both parties and just human nature means they might not get the best from each other. It’s a bit like blind dating.

The drivingevals coupled with the pairing being done ahead of time so both can do a virtual catch up can go a long way towards making both sides comfortable well ahead of the track day itself and also help set expectations.

Neither requires a significant time or cost commitment from any party but is greatly beneficial to all involved so anything to make this the norm would be a great thing.

TXE36

The PCA chapters and local orgs around TX have been using student/instructor evals on Clubregistration for well over a decade. I thought this was standard practice and everybody around here has a "permanent record".

Zhao

We do it old school with paper evaluations still and motorsportreg information to manage pairings.

Besides just tracking people’s names and prior evaluations, are there any other perks to paying that money? Is there any evaluation program that links with motorsportreg?

Steve113

Everyone has some great comments however I can tell you that 98%+ of the accidents are not beginners with instructors. Its the so called instructors, advanced and intermediate drivers crashing.

I am more worried about instructing an intermediate or advanced driver the a beginner anyway. Plus if you are instructing a beginner and they crash well shame on the instructor. It should never have gotten near that point you weren't doing your job well.

matttheboatman

Most fun I ever had at a DE was when we were forced to grid based on our speed/lap times. It was not about making sure cars do not pass. Just the opposite. It was all about passing. Since the car ahead is slightly faster, it required you to improve to get past him. And, all the while the car behind is improving and going to pass you if you make a mistake or don't improve yourself.

I'm not sure I am properly describing the dynamic that running in close quarters with people / cars of similar speed and skill - but it sure was fun.

linzman

Sounds like Club Racing

LuigiVampa

You would know about this stuff better than most, given your business.

I wonder "track risk" is anything like car insurance for old people versus teens. I think the statistic is that older drivers get into more accidents but they are much less costly.

I'm thinking it does not translate to the track as most noobs have an instructor helping them out. As cars get more powerful, and with all the nannies, I wonder if that statistic will change.

ExMB

Oh, oh!

Lawyer vs Insurance.

Who will win?

Or will there be a settlement without any admission?

gbuff

Maumee Valley PCA used to group the cars that way and it WAS a blast

Zhao

Long CSB post, but today was pretty fun but for all the wrong reasons.

So I get my students. A guy in a c7 vette vert who's late (uhg, never a good sign, usually avoid them like the plague but he had no experience so in theory no ego), a 71 Chevelle with factory seats and a lap belt, and some sorta new genesis sedan with a warning about the student. At this point I'm thinking one of the organizers is trying to kill me.

1) Mr vette has zero track knowledge. Never even watched a race or went go karting. The highlight of the day is when I get in his car he has one of those steering wheel spinners on the wheel. One of these things:



So I ask what is that for? And he says oh for the track... welp you can imagine how that conversation went and 5 minutes later we had that uninstalled, and I spend about 40 minutes with him to figure out why he's there and all that and explain the bare basics to him before we go out. Apparently he owns a bunch of property next to the track and hears cars going, and thought he'd try it out. I've never had a student so green, even the high school kid that didn't own a car yet (and i dont think had a driver's license yet) knew more about driving, but pretty cool he was trying it out still. By his last session we only got as far as sorta running lines in the ballpark, but a couple corners he was fairly consistent, and I figured pretty good progress considering the start point...

2) Mr. Chevelle was surprisingly only terrifying for the first session... it didn't take him long to learn the line, although he still had stupid power and those typical 80s tires everyone buys for cars like that and was pretty rough to begin with. I showed him how I drive and by the end I was impressed with how he could manage the weight distribution of the car to flow so smoothly in a high speed sweeper leading to a right hander that crests a hill to a hard breaking zone and switch back. That was a pretty fun car to ride along with too once he got to that point. I think that guy could actually become pretty competitive given how much he changed.

3) However in my first session of Mr. Chevelle (in yellow group because he had a few track events prior at other tracks) we were caught by a guy and my student goes to point out his window to give advanced warning right before the corner leading into the next passing zone (pretty normal here, I've done that at lapping days for a decade+ so people know to set up their line and pass to get by with minimal time loss in hte next passing zone) but the guy behind us jumps the gun and blows by him in the corner. The next time that guy comes around he blows by us in another corner trying to take the line from the student. I'm thinking wtf, ok mental note no one probably saw that, I'll bring it up with the organizer and we'll find this guy after. So back in the pits some random guy ambushes me and starts beaking at me that my student almost caused a major accident. I did not see anything of the sort, so I ask what are you talking about? Where and when? He's like he pointed me by and didn't hold his line and almost took me out. The guy is now yelling at me that I need to watch what my student is doing and make sure he lets people pass safely. I'm thinking, odd, I totally did not notice any point bys on the straights that my student didn't obey the rules nor did I see him deviated from his line..., then I put two and two together and say, wait, what car are you driving??? Well it's Mr. drives flat out and passes people in corners! Apparently I totally missed him doing an abortion of a pass attempt in my blind spot the last time he passed us, and it sounds like he just about hit us before he successfully passed us at the end of the corner.

Some yellow group guy driving like a douchebag is yelling at me..... so now i'm mad and came unglued on him. I bark at him, You Do Not Yell At Me. First, it's your responsibility to make a safe pass, not the person getting passed, period. He's a student with limited experience and you're pulling risky passes on him? and You passed in a corner in yellow group and almost made contact? Yellow group is passing only on straights with a point by. He's like I verified with the organizer I can pass anywhere. I told him I doubt that, unless the rules changed for all. I'm going to go verify that. So I go talk to the organizer, and he's like wtf, no, rules are the same, no passing in corners for yellow or green. Then he's like, wait, who are you talking about? I'm like blah blah blah, he's like oh great, I just got finished talking to someone else complaining about him in that session..... So that was pretty much my first experience with a Mr. Drives flat out guy. The funny thing is he wasn't even fast, just a hot mess of aggression and entitlement. I was too busy with students to follow up but I didn't see him go out until a later session and he never passed us again so I assume he got his *** chewed out pretty hard.


4) Mr genesis guy was super aggressive. According to his previous instructor he thought drifting was fast and fun, and wanted to do that and wouldn't listen and thank all the gods that the car had some very good drivers aids and TC. After that warning I've never loved TC and drivers aids so much lol. So I do the pep talk with him and all that, and I go out with him for his first session and ya, even after the pep talk I can see the previous instructors warnings were not exaggerated, but the car does have good TC and aids that prevent that make me think ok we aren't giong to die, lets see if I can make some progress with this guy. The low point was when he's like I'm going to turn the tc and drivers aids off now. I was like oh hell no!, you leave those on! lol. So after a bit of work I got him to drive smoother, and thx to heavy traffic in that group he actually caught on that that is way faster and it's a lot more fun to pass people than to try and be ken block and get passed by people. The 2nd session he ditched his drift mode mentality entirely and actually started running properly and focusing on the line and working at proper power delivery. His lines still needed work, but he was actually really good at braking, releasing the pedal at the right moment from the fastest straight every time, which is pretty hard for a car with so much power and weight behind it. The instructor who gave up on him commented what the heck did you tell him? He's a totally different driver now.

So 4 potential disasters ended up mostly as positives in the end. Mr. Flat out track hero has no positives (it's why I am not really a fan of letting lapping day people pass in corners in any group), I've never been so angry at someone at the track before... except he'll probably play nice now I bet.

DTMiller

Just a lap belt?

TXE36

That belongs on a Zamboni or a tractor.

Bill Lehman

Nobody knows a "Necker ****" when they see one?

dgrobs

Watch the language. There's kids in here.....

Zhao

Ya exactly, a lap belt... One of the reasons why I posted in the ‘why I don’t instruct thread’. I’m in the collision industry and that is actually the tip of the iceberg compared to all the other safety concerns a 1970 era car has in an accident. A bucket and harness would probably kill you in a rollover. Going sideways into a barrier would potentially kill you. Going head on or front offset into a barrier would potentially severely injure or kill the driver and possibly the passenger. And that is assuming the anchor points and structure of the car is sound. That type of car is a death trap and I don’t think that should be on a normal race track and I definitely wouldn't have gotten into that on the track I road race on. However, this specific track is a very well designed track free of stuff to hit built with motorbikes in mind and at no point did I feel uncomfortable.