This is why I stopped Instructing at DE events
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ProCoach (06-28-2021)
06-28-2021, 10:24 AM
#273
At a recent event at Laguna Seca a slower car pulled off line as he saw me in mirrors. By doing so, he pulled right into the apex of the turn right as I would hit it forcing me to decide; A. Come harder on brakes and slow more than I wanted to and follow him through turn or B. Come off line, out in marbles and pass outside at speed but still much slower than a clean lap would be. Both would drop lap times by a a second or two.
06-28-2021, 10:53 AM
#274
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06-28-2021, 11:50 AM
#275
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This thread was off the rails in post #1 when the OP said he quit instructing because someone wrecked a GT4 that didn’t have an instructor in it. … several years after the OP quit instructing.
06-28-2021, 12:37 PM
#276
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slower car pulled off race line
in doing so he entered off line blocking apex driving around the corner right at the time I would have on race line entered and hit apex
Slower cars will do this thinking they are helping
Hold your line and let faster cars pass please. Trust me. We will get around you!
06-28-2021, 12:51 PM
#277
06-28-2021, 05:29 PM
#279
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Cliff notes?
06-28-2021, 05:36 PM
#280
06-28-2021, 05:39 PM
#281
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And here I thought this thread was about instructing (or not instructing as the case may be).
I gotta pay more attention in class....
06-28-2021, 05:50 PM
#282
What the hell is an "open group"? Sounds like some sort of free for all.
06-28-2021, 06:07 PM
#283
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06-28-2021, 06:09 PM
#284
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Great thread. We've laughed, we've cried, we've started some keyboard wars. Good times.
I'm always incredibly grateful to the instructors for their courage, yes courage, to hop into a high horsepower car with someone they've never met who then basically has his/her life in their hands. Blows my mind. My first instructor and I (at WGI with Niagara PCA) initially did not get along, in part because I thought I knew more than I did, and he was a bit of a curmudgeon. I quickly learned that I was a true HPDE noob, and got in line. After that, things went swimmingly, and I was solo'd off on the second day of my first HPDE. I was quickly promoted after that to blue (at VIR, with Zone 2 PCA; also solo'd for most of the second day and all of the final day), then white (again with Zone 2 PCA). My instructors along the way have all been very nice and interesting people and I treasured all of their feedback.
On that note, one of my PCA instructors at WGI (again with Niagara PCA) a few years back was instructing in two groups; he promoted the other driver up a group into my group (white). He notably solo'd me off after we'd come within 6" of the armco/tires short of T11 because I overcorrected/didn't take advantage of the track out coming out of 10 while passing a much slower Mini Cooper S. I put two off, saved it, kept rolling after checking with the instructor (since I'd put two off), and had a great rest of the session.
[embed]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8oFEfPJgiU[/embed]
With his other student... in a different Mini Cooper, and on our group's next session, they spun an tagged the inside wall hard, on the passenger side, coming out of T8. Hard hit, but they thankfully both were fine. Can't say the same for the Mini. I talked to my instructor about it after the session, not knowing he was instructing in the offending Mini. He used it as a teachable moment for me, and without disparaging the other driver. Very classy.
All in all, I've had some excellent PCA group instructors, and again I am grateful for their knowledge, patience, feedback, but most of all courage. I agree that the cars in the green and blue groups today seem far more powerful/capable than what I was with when I started out in 2011. And I think it's plenty wise for anyone driving or riding in a car like that to have a healthy dose of humility. I think the mando classroom sessions for those groups help instill that humility, too. They're great at knocking you down a peg when you think you have the answers to their questions and aren't even close lol. I will say I've noticed in some PCA white groups (as well as the red & black groups) there's a few guys who are definitely showing up to "race" at an HPDE. And I'll admit that my favorite part of my HPDEs is passing cars my car (928S4) should not be able to pass (like a GT3). But the vast majority of people there are incredibly friendly, love to talk about cars, their line, etc. I just love the entire atmosphere! And do my best to avoid the few jerks.
With respect to lap times... I'll admit I typically keep track (!) of my times, but that's not for "racing" purposes. It's an objective performance metric that demonstrates whether I'm advancing as a driver going arounds tracks where I've done dozens of laps. So I don't fault people for keeping track of their times; sure they can be used to compare relative speeds but it's still not really "racing." I should note, too, that some older cars (like mine) while capable of higher speeds, *shouldn't* be pushed to 10/10ths, or even 9/10ths, in certain situations. 928s typically have oiling issues above 6500 rpm in turns. I've corrected that issue on my car with some stupid expensive modifications, but I still try to keep it under 6k in turns, which means on certain tracks/turns, I'm not going to be able to push the car, or myself, to its fullest potential. That, however, does not at all detract from my enjoyment. And of course, I keep a close watch on my mirrors for faster vehicles.
All of that said... my GF has just begun tracking; she'll be doing her 5th DE day this weekend at Summit Main. She has taken to DEing like a fish to water (I'd like to think I'm a part of her speedy learning curve lol), and earned Most Improved Driver for her group on her first day out (basically comparing how she did on her first session compared to her last). She runs in a JCW Mini that's nicely modified, and surprisingly quick. Her instructor for that first session, with AutoInterests at Summit-Shenandoah, was awesome (as was the AutoInterests group; they put on a great event, and we're planning to do more events with them soon). Her second event, WGI with Potomac PCA, was a slightly different experience. Her first instructor, who shall remain nameless, was, we both think, scared to be instructing a "novice." She did not communicate well at all, on or off the track, including giving inconsistent braking instructions that simply made no sense. She was patently uncomfortable in the car, through no fault of my GF. We are both certain of this latter point inasmuch as she switched instructors for day 2 and WOW what a difference. Outstanding communicator, great with both positive and negative feedback.
I am sad to hear that there's an instructor shortage, but I understand. Now that I'm getting back into this craziness, thanks to finally having a woman in my life who not only understands it but loves it, perhaps I'll become an instructor some day. This thread has inspired me so!
Mike
PS: if you hate conga lines and are in one... take a quick pit stop, and let the line move along. Maybe it will dissipate by the time you catch up to the dancers. And on the pit stop, chances are there will be a track official who you can talk to about the problem. I agree, the conga lines suck, but they happen, and sometimes they get resolved quickly, sometimes they don't. For the latter, see step A.
I'm always incredibly grateful to the instructors for their courage, yes courage, to hop into a high horsepower car with someone they've never met who then basically has his/her life in their hands. Blows my mind. My first instructor and I (at WGI with Niagara PCA) initially did not get along, in part because I thought I knew more than I did, and he was a bit of a curmudgeon. I quickly learned that I was a true HPDE noob, and got in line. After that, things went swimmingly, and I was solo'd off on the second day of my first HPDE. I was quickly promoted after that to blue (at VIR, with Zone 2 PCA; also solo'd for most of the second day and all of the final day), then white (again with Zone 2 PCA). My instructors along the way have all been very nice and interesting people and I treasured all of their feedback.
On that note, one of my PCA instructors at WGI (again with Niagara PCA) a few years back was instructing in two groups; he promoted the other driver up a group into my group (white). He notably solo'd me off after we'd come within 6" of the armco/tires short of T11 because I overcorrected/didn't take advantage of the track out coming out of 10 while passing a much slower Mini Cooper S. I put two off, saved it, kept rolling after checking with the instructor (since I'd put two off), and had a great rest of the session.
[embed]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8oFEfPJgiU[/embed]
With his other student... in a different Mini Cooper, and on our group's next session, they spun an tagged the inside wall hard, on the passenger side, coming out of T8. Hard hit, but they thankfully both were fine. Can't say the same for the Mini. I talked to my instructor about it after the session, not knowing he was instructing in the offending Mini. He used it as a teachable moment for me, and without disparaging the other driver. Very classy.
All in all, I've had some excellent PCA group instructors, and again I am grateful for their knowledge, patience, feedback, but most of all courage. I agree that the cars in the green and blue groups today seem far more powerful/capable than what I was with when I started out in 2011. And I think it's plenty wise for anyone driving or riding in a car like that to have a healthy dose of humility. I think the mando classroom sessions for those groups help instill that humility, too. They're great at knocking you down a peg when you think you have the answers to their questions and aren't even close lol. I will say I've noticed in some PCA white groups (as well as the red & black groups) there's a few guys who are definitely showing up to "race" at an HPDE. And I'll admit that my favorite part of my HPDEs is passing cars my car (928S4) should not be able to pass (like a GT3). But the vast majority of people there are incredibly friendly, love to talk about cars, their line, etc. I just love the entire atmosphere! And do my best to avoid the few jerks.
With respect to lap times... I'll admit I typically keep track (!) of my times, but that's not for "racing" purposes. It's an objective performance metric that demonstrates whether I'm advancing as a driver going arounds tracks where I've done dozens of laps. So I don't fault people for keeping track of their times; sure they can be used to compare relative speeds but it's still not really "racing." I should note, too, that some older cars (like mine) while capable of higher speeds, *shouldn't* be pushed to 10/10ths, or even 9/10ths, in certain situations. 928s typically have oiling issues above 6500 rpm in turns. I've corrected that issue on my car with some stupid expensive modifications, but I still try to keep it under 6k in turns, which means on certain tracks/turns, I'm not going to be able to push the car, or myself, to its fullest potential. That, however, does not at all detract from my enjoyment. And of course, I keep a close watch on my mirrors for faster vehicles.
All of that said... my GF has just begun tracking; she'll be doing her 5th DE day this weekend at Summit Main. She has taken to DEing like a fish to water (I'd like to think I'm a part of her speedy learning curve lol), and earned Most Improved Driver for her group on her first day out (basically comparing how she did on her first session compared to her last). She runs in a JCW Mini that's nicely modified, and surprisingly quick. Her instructor for that first session, with AutoInterests at Summit-Shenandoah, was awesome (as was the AutoInterests group; they put on a great event, and we're planning to do more events with them soon). Her second event, WGI with Potomac PCA, was a slightly different experience. Her first instructor, who shall remain nameless, was, we both think, scared to be instructing a "novice." She did not communicate well at all, on or off the track, including giving inconsistent braking instructions that simply made no sense. She was patently uncomfortable in the car, through no fault of my GF. We are both certain of this latter point inasmuch as she switched instructors for day 2 and WOW what a difference. Outstanding communicator, great with both positive and negative feedback.
I am sad to hear that there's an instructor shortage, but I understand. Now that I'm getting back into this craziness, thanks to finally having a woman in my life who not only understands it but loves it, perhaps I'll become an instructor some day. This thread has inspired me so!
Mike
PS: if you hate conga lines and are in one... take a quick pit stop, and let the line move along. Maybe it will dissipate by the time you catch up to the dancers. And on the pit stop, chances are there will be a track official who you can talk to about the problem. I agree, the conga lines suck, but they happen, and sometimes they get resolved quickly, sometimes they don't. For the latter, see step A.
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ProCoach (06-28-2021)
06-28-2021, 06:11 PM
#285
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Great thread. We've laughed, we've cried, we've started some keyboard wars. Good times.
I'm always incredibly grateful to the instructors for their courage, yes courage, to hop into a high horsepower car with someone they've never met who then basically has his/her life in their hands. Blows my mind. My first instructor and I (at WGI with Niagara PCA) initially did not get along, in part because I thought I knew more than I did, and he was a bit of a curmudgeon. I quickly learned that I was a true HPDE noob, and got in line. After that, things went swimmingly, and I was solo'd off on the second day of my first HPDE. I was quickly promoted after that to blue (at VIR, with Zone 2 PCA; also solo'd for most of the second day and all of the final day), then white (again with Zone 2 PCA). My instructors along the way have all been very nice and interesting people and I treasured all of their feedback.
On that note, one of my PCA instructors at WGI (again with Niagara PCA) a few years back was instructing in two groups; he promoted the other driver up a group into my group (white). He notably solo'd me off after we'd come within 6" of the armco/tires short of T11 because I overcorrected/didn't take advantage of the track out coming out of 10 while passing a much slower Mini Cooper S. I put two off, saved it, kept rolling after checking with the instructor (since I'd put two off), and had a great rest of the session.
[embed]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8oFEfPJgiU[/embed]
With his other student... in a different Mini Cooper, and on our group's next session, they spun an tagged the inside wall hard, on the passenger side, coming out of T8. Hard hit, but they thankfully both were fine. Can't say the same for the Mini. I talked to my instructor about it after the session, not knowing he was instructing in the offending Mini. He used it as a teachable moment for me, and without disparaging the other driver. Very classy.
All in all, I've had some excellent PCA group instructors, and again I am grateful for their knowledge, patience, feedback, but most of all courage. I agree that the cars in the green and blue groups today seem far more powerful/capable than what I was with when I started out in 2011. And I think it's plenty wise for anyone driving or riding in a car like that to have a healthy dose of humility. I think the mando classroom sessions for those groups help instill that humility, too. They're great at knocking you down a peg when you think you have the answers to their questions and aren't even close lol. I will say I've noticed in some PCA white groups (as well as the red & black groups) there's a few guys who are definitely showing up to "race" at an HPDE. And I'll admit that my favorite part of my HPDEs is passing cars my car (928S4) should not be able to pass (like a GT3). But the vast majority of people there are incredibly friendly, love to talk about cars, their line, etc. I just love the entire atmosphere! And do my best to avoid the few jerks.
With respect to lap times... I'll admit I typically keep track (!) of my times, but that's not for "racing" purposes. It's an objective performance metric that demonstrates whether I'm advancing as a driver going arounds tracks where I've done dozens of laps. So I don't fault people for keeping track of their times; sure they can be used to compare relative speeds but it's still not really "racing." I should note, too, that some older cars (like mine) while capable of higher speeds, *shouldn't* be pushed to 10/10ths, or even 9/10ths, in certain situations. 928s typically have oiling issues above 6500 rpm in turns. I've corrected that issue on my car with some stupid expensive modifications, but I still try to keep it under 6k in turns, which means on certain tracks/turns, I'm not going to be able to push the car, or myself, to its fullest potential. That, however, does not at all detract from my enjoyment. And of course, I keep a close watch on my mirrors for faster vehicles.
All of that said... my GF has just begun tracking; she'll be doing her 5th DE day this weekend at Summit Main. She has taken to DEing like a fish to water (I'd like to think I'm a part of her speedy learning curve lol), and earned Most Improved Driver for her group on her first day out (basically comparing how she did on her first session compared to her last). She runs in a JCW Mini that's nicely modified, and surprisingly quick. Her instructor for that first session, with AutoInterests at Summit-Shenandoah, was awesome (as was the AutoInterests group; they put on a great event, and we're planning to do more events with them soon). Her second event, WGI with Potomac PCA, was a slightly different experience. Her first instructor, who shall remain nameless, was, we both think, scared to be instructing a "novice." She did not communicate well at all, on or off the track, including giving inconsistent braking instructions that simply made no sense. She was patently uncomfortable in the car, through no fault of my GF. We are both certain of this latter point inasmuch as she switched instructors for day 2 and WOW what a difference. Outstanding communicator, great with both positive and negative feedback.
I am sad to hear that there's an instructor shortage, but I understand. Now that I'm getting back into this craziness, thanks to finally having a woman in my life who not only understands it but loves it, perhaps I'll become an instructor some day. This thread has inspired me so!
Mike
PS: if you hate conga lines and are in one... take a quick pit stop, and let the line move along. Maybe it will dissipate by the time you catch up to the dancers. And on the pit stop, chances are there will be a track official who you can talk to about the problem. I agree, the conga lines suck, but they happen, and sometimes they get resolved quickly, sometimes they don't. For the latter, see step A.
I'm always incredibly grateful to the instructors for their courage, yes courage, to hop into a high horsepower car with someone they've never met who then basically has his/her life in their hands. Blows my mind. My first instructor and I (at WGI with Niagara PCA) initially did not get along, in part because I thought I knew more than I did, and he was a bit of a curmudgeon. I quickly learned that I was a true HPDE noob, and got in line. After that, things went swimmingly, and I was solo'd off on the second day of my first HPDE. I was quickly promoted after that to blue (at VIR, with Zone 2 PCA; also solo'd for most of the second day and all of the final day), then white (again with Zone 2 PCA). My instructors along the way have all been very nice and interesting people and I treasured all of their feedback.
On that note, one of my PCA instructors at WGI (again with Niagara PCA) a few years back was instructing in two groups; he promoted the other driver up a group into my group (white). He notably solo'd me off after we'd come within 6" of the armco/tires short of T11 because I overcorrected/didn't take advantage of the track out coming out of 10 while passing a much slower Mini Cooper S. I put two off, saved it, kept rolling after checking with the instructor (since I'd put two off), and had a great rest of the session.
[embed]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8oFEfPJgiU[/embed]
With his other student... in a different Mini Cooper, and on our group's next session, they spun an tagged the inside wall hard, on the passenger side, coming out of T8. Hard hit, but they thankfully both were fine. Can't say the same for the Mini. I talked to my instructor about it after the session, not knowing he was instructing in the offending Mini. He used it as a teachable moment for me, and without disparaging the other driver. Very classy.
All in all, I've had some excellent PCA group instructors, and again I am grateful for their knowledge, patience, feedback, but most of all courage. I agree that the cars in the green and blue groups today seem far more powerful/capable than what I was with when I started out in 2011. And I think it's plenty wise for anyone driving or riding in a car like that to have a healthy dose of humility. I think the mando classroom sessions for those groups help instill that humility, too. They're great at knocking you down a peg when you think you have the answers to their questions and aren't even close lol. I will say I've noticed in some PCA white groups (as well as the red & black groups) there's a few guys who are definitely showing up to "race" at an HPDE. And I'll admit that my favorite part of my HPDEs is passing cars my car (928S4) should not be able to pass (like a GT3). But the vast majority of people there are incredibly friendly, love to talk about cars, their line, etc. I just love the entire atmosphere! And do my best to avoid the few jerks.
With respect to lap times... I'll admit I typically keep track (!) of my times, but that's not for "racing" purposes. It's an objective performance metric that demonstrates whether I'm advancing as a driver going arounds tracks where I've done dozens of laps. So I don't fault people for keeping track of their times; sure they can be used to compare relative speeds but it's still not really "racing." I should note, too, that some older cars (like mine) while capable of higher speeds, *shouldn't* be pushed to 10/10ths, or even 9/10ths, in certain situations. 928s typically have oiling issues above 6500 rpm in turns. I've corrected that issue on my car with some stupid expensive modifications, but I still try to keep it under 6k in turns, which means on certain tracks/turns, I'm not going to be able to push the car, or myself, to its fullest potential. That, however, does not at all detract from my enjoyment. And of course, I keep a close watch on my mirrors for faster vehicles.
All of that said... my GF has just begun tracking; she'll be doing her 5th DE day this weekend at Summit Main. She has taken to DEing like a fish to water (I'd like to think I'm a part of her speedy learning curve lol), and earned Most Improved Driver for her group on her first day out (basically comparing how she did on her first session compared to her last). She runs in a JCW Mini that's nicely modified, and surprisingly quick. Her instructor for that first session, with AutoInterests at Summit-Shenandoah, was awesome (as was the AutoInterests group; they put on a great event, and we're planning to do more events with them soon). Her second event, WGI with Potomac PCA, was a slightly different experience. Her first instructor, who shall remain nameless, was, we both think, scared to be instructing a "novice." She did not communicate well at all, on or off the track, including giving inconsistent braking instructions that simply made no sense. She was patently uncomfortable in the car, through no fault of my GF. We are both certain of this latter point inasmuch as she switched instructors for day 2 and WOW what a difference. Outstanding communicator, great with both positive and negative feedback.
I am sad to hear that there's an instructor shortage, but I understand. Now that I'm getting back into this craziness, thanks to finally having a woman in my life who not only understands it but loves it, perhaps I'll become an instructor some day. This thread has inspired me so!
Mike
PS: if you hate conga lines and are in one... take a quick pit stop, and let the line move along. Maybe it will dissipate by the time you catch up to the dancers. And on the pit stop, chances are there will be a track official who you can talk to about the problem. I agree, the conga lines suck, but they happen, and sometimes they get resolved quickly, sometimes they don't. For the latter, see step A.
2 minute minor for trying to get this thread back on topic. It's the sin bin for you young man. 2 minutes for roughing the trolls....