We do the same thing in Allegheny Region PCA (ARPCA). We combine the advanced solo “A” group drivers with Instructors. Then we ask them to self-select.
We call it A / Instr Plus (+) and A / Instr Minus (-). Usually the split is around 50/50. The pace is quicker in plus but doesn’t necessarily mean it’s all high HP cars. It works out quite well. It is partly due to economics. You can only divide track time by so many run groups before you don’t provide a session of meaningful length.

For our Friday Advanced Solo Lapping days, we generally run two groups: pulls and minus. It works really well partly because the experience is checked, and drivers vetted before they are admitted. Some new to the region might need a check out ride to ensure they can play well with the group. It’s for everyone’s safety and enjoyment. But we don’t take a new driver to our region and start them in novice if they have verified experience that says otherwise. Our CDI spends a fair amount of time checking credentials or references to be sure the experience will make for a safe event. We might “demote” some folks based on their driving but that doesn’t happen often.

Our July 30 event at Pitt Race is usually a sell-out and we do a great job of making sure it’s safe and fun by enforcing the rules to avoid “trains/conga lines” in all run groups which nobody wants. Usually in the novice group the first session can be tough if there are a lot of first-timers but after that it usually settles down quickly. And we put a lot of responsibility on the instructor to ensure the student is giving appropriate point by signals or driving through the pit lane to let others have clear track.

If everyone maintains situational awareness and gives proper signals, the variance in lap times becomes far less important. Closing speed can be a big deal but if you aren’t the fastest out there, you know it and watch mirrors and point-by early. Everyone stays happy and SAFE despite disparity in horsepower and speed.

 

This entire thread is amusing. When I was doing a lot of DE, running in the Red group in a 968, I thought I had amazing awareness. Then I started racing. I had A LOT to learn. The awareness is so much higher. Granted, there is the rare exception, but take the Mosport race. The enduro combines ALL the Porsches in one 90 minute race. Over 45 cars, lap times ranging from 1:22 to 1:42, and no chicanes, no blockers, usually no incidents. True, not every lap is a lap record, but plenty are close.

 

This thread is all over the place. Anyone else getting bored yet?

 

Nope!

Enjoy all the nuances and variances.

Still waiting on how booze, cigars, swedish fish, hookers & blow will improve the overall HPDE experience.

Paging dgrobs and Luigi.

 

I think Dgrobs is busy drinking bourbon, smoking cigars and sampling the joys of Beaver Falls. He may not have phone reception......

 

And how many those racers are running 15 seconds a lap slower than the cars potential? If I had to guess, none.

A repeated point that seems to be going over people’s head is that this driver is not comfortable in the car, was well off pace and sketchy to pass as he’s almost coming to a stop at places.

All those things are absolutely fine in a hpde where you have peers and other run groups with instructors, post sessions driving workshops, a lower overall pace and a safer opportunity to learn the skill set in a less intimidating manner.

However even at hpde’s open group exists for people to push their cars and themselves. There is a trust between the drivers that everyone there is at a certain skill level with sufficient car control and not intimidated by open passing. If you show up to a track, decide to run in the open group and behave like this example, people are going to have an issue with you and rightfully so.

 

Your example is not fine at any HPDE that I've attended other than possibly the newbie instructed run group with an instructor in the car and the rest of the run group instructors warned of the difficulty this driver was happening. Even with that, it would not be long before said driver would be advised OSB if they couldn't improve enough to be passed safely with an instructor in the car.

If that kind of stuff is happening with solo drivers the people running your HPDE are doing it wrong.

 

^ agreed. It's been a long time (I remember the event, I'm thinking 9 years) since I encountered a HPDE that put someone in the fast group that they hadn't seen drive before and that event was a gongshow on so many levels.

However, reading the last couple pages it does seem there might be areas of north america that do not put any effort into making up groups. I'm not sure how that works out for them, but I don't see how they wouldn't encounter what robertr1 is saying running that format.

 

^ Agreed.


Since this thread has gone off-topic regarding PCA DE run groups of all things, I’d like to provide my 2-cents on this topic that’s near and dear to me as a Miata racer/driver. This is also an ongoing issue with some members of the drivers club that I belong to, who seem to think that they’re entitled to put down clean hot laps each and every lap. I’ve noticed that the drivers who tend to complain the most about this are the ones who do DEs only and don’t race.


Reading through some of the recent posts in this thread, you’d think that the drivers complaining about cars holding them up at DEs are completely unfamiliar with endurance racing (24 hours of Le Mans, 24, hours of Daytona, 12 hours of Sebring, etc.) where multiple classes of faster prototype cars compete against each other while slower GT cars compete against each other too. There are significant speed differentials between car classes in these types of endurance racing formats, and the decision to make a safe pass always rests with the overtaking car. The car being overtaken must be situationally aware that they are being overtaken, and not make any unpredictable moves to block or impede the ability of the overtaking driver to pass. The same rules apply to sprint racing and DEs where there are usually different classes and types of (faster and slower) vehicles on track at the same time.


The truth is that routinely managing slower traffic and timing passes correctly are essential driving skills. In races, sometimes you can use the slower traffic to help you and sometimes it hinders you (just like full course yellows). Can it be frustrating sometimes? Absolutely, but it’s just the way it is, so you need to get used to it. Managing slower traffic and timing passes are just two of the essential skills/strategies that drivers need to develop as part of their overall racecraft.


Additionally, faster cars aren’t necessarily run by better drivers, and this is ESPECIALLY evident at DEs where anybody can show up in a high-horsepower car regardless of skill. This is because horsepower is relatively cheap now, and anyone with a decent credit score and a down payment can drive out of most dealerships in a 600+ horsepower production car these days (that come standard with a multitude of electronic nannies, traction control, stability control, anti-lock brakes, computer-controlled driving modes, automatic/dual-clutch transmissions, etc., that all work together to assist average drivers to appear much better than they actually are). In other words, anyone with a functioning right foot can be very fast (in a straight line) and think they’re a great driver behind the wheel of a 640 HP Porsche 911 Turbo S, 800+ HP Dodge SRT Demon, 800+ HP Ford Mustang Shelby GT500SE, even though the onboard automation and computers are doing most of the work.


The bottom line is this: If drivers of 400, 500, 600+ horsepower cars aren’t able to routinely go off line to make clean passes on 247 horsepower 964 Carreras, 128 horsepower Miatas, etc., then the problem sits behind the wheel of the higher horsepower car. In my opinion, the drivers of high-horsepower, highly-automated cars who routinely complain about slower analog cars on track (classic Porsches, Miatas, etc.) clearly need some additional training on managing traffic and timing their passes better…

 

^nailed it Outlaw 06!

 

So unless you're driving your car at it's limit you shouldn't be in the group? I leave time on the table on purpose, I like my car and don't want to have an incident in corners with serious consequences. I don't hold people up, if you catch me, I see you and let you by.

 

DE isn't racing - the car has to point you by. If you come up on a line of slow cars passing slow cars, it doesn't matter what you do as you have to wait your turn. If Mr Miata wants to have fun through the turns (as he is entitled to do), he will and you will have to wait.

No advanced groups go out to work on 'moving through traffic and driving off line' in my experience. Moving confidently through traffic is something any intermediate driver should be able to do comfortably.

The fact that high performance cars are accessible is a good thing, not sure what driver aids have to do with it. You are correct in that having a faster car doesn't make you a good driver, I see plenty of fast cars driven slowly.

 

And I see plenty of "slow" cars driven very quickly. smdh...

Here is a Spec Miata driven extremely well (red, d'oh) and a 997 GT3 Cup driven very well (blue, obviously) and their respective cornering speeds at VIR.

TWENTY SECONDS DIFFERENCE in lap times... 1:55 versus 2:15



No significant difference in corner speeds, except the Miata is faster in T1, T3 (by a lot) and Turn 10. A little slower at T12.

This time and speed comparison is good for the Glen, too. I see this ALL the time...

Moral is, don't assume a slow car is, in fact, slower. At least, where it counts...

 

Miatas or other slow cars or fast cars don't cause conga lines. Conga lines have one cause: inattentive, unaware, or rude drivers who aren't giving point-bys.

In my experience, many Miata drivers are quite fast - like top of the run group fast. From your attitude, I highly doubt you could keep up with one in the turns. An experienced driver knows the Miatas are slow in the straights - the turns are where they shine against most cars.

One of the funnest sessions I had on a track was myself in my old E36 M3 and a friend in a Spec Miata at TWS. I would reel her in on the front stretch, get a point by and it was a game of how far I could stay up front in the twisty bits. We never held each other up, fourteen passes in 7 laps between us as well as other passes/being passed as was other traffic. We both managed to set personal bests as well.

Part of "Advanced" is the ability to drive off line. If your advanced groups aren't "working on that", then they aren't really advanced. You won't get into the White (highest non-instructor) run group in my region without being able to drive smoothly, quickly and safely off line. I start working with completing passes off line with my students as soon as I'm comfortable, which generally occurs when I'm about to promote them out of the newbie group.

Driver aids can give false confidence in ones ability because it could be the aids are all that are keeping the car on the track. Those driver aids allow a poor driver to wind the car up faster than their skills would otherwise allow. The better the driver aids and the higher the horsepower, the more ugly it is when the limits of the aids are exceeded.

As a side note, I also have to laugh at the high horsepower guys "being held up". What they don't realize is being held up in a Miata or lower horsepower car is a much bigger deal because it takes so much longer to build the momentum back up. The absolute worse thing for a leading car to do is hold up a Miata that is quickly gaining on them. When that Miata gets all over your ***, he has to slow down. When you finally give the point, it takes him forever to get by you and then he has to wind it all up again to get away from you.

Generally, the only way a high horsepower car is held up in the twisty bits by a Miata is when the high horsepower car is slow on the point by and steals the Miata driver's momentum. The reward for for this is following the Miata through the twisties and perhaps down the next straight. A prompt point by results in the Miata keeping his mo and the likelihood is he will be gone by the next straight.

It's all about situational awareness and cooperation out there.

 

Endurance racing is totally different. In endurance racing there is no waiting for a point by and you can pass anywhere. The car being passed is likely someone experienced who knows battling the car you're not competing against ends in a huge time loss vs just letting them by in an easy spot like letting off the gas on a striaght or braking early and letting them dive in. Conga lines don't exist in endurance racing; they're super common in DEs.