ProCoach

I don't know why I get so excited after doing this for thirty-five plus years. People still drive around in circles, there are still a million ways to do things on-track, people still get stuck at plateaus. People are always bragging about their lap times or beating their personal bests...

Still, as Steve says, if you pay attention, you can co-exist.

Fun stuff. I'll take a pill or have a drink, now.

Montaver

Its not about being 'superior' or 'inferior'. If I was driving a slow car, I would also be slow. As it happens I drive a medium power car, and i'm still slow

Put it another way, you have a load of faster cars running 2:00 laps and a load of slower cars doing 2:25. How is that fun or safe for anyone? The slow cars are constantly having to drive in their mirrors, the fast cars are constantly in traffic.

TXE36

ExMB

Lets look at it this way. 2 min = 120 sec. With a differential of 25 sec between fast and slow those fast cars have almost 5 laps before the encounter traffic. Lets also say that actual session run time is 20 minutes; accounting for slow 1st lap warm up and then getting all cars of track at the end. Using that those fats cars wouldn't experience another slow car to pass until they were called off track.

coss1600

If all their car is only capable of running 2:25, I don't think that's an issue as you can see where and how they are slow. If they are running 2:40 in a car that runs 2:25, those are the ones I am scared of.

SnP

Instructed a 30 something today in a 2019 Turbo S

Great student and we both are alive at the end of the day

no rollovers, pancaking, or forays off track

coss1600

The sad part is that some cars are more than 25 sec off pace, but then some cars are just really fast. Let's just use like the median pace or something.

Zhao

It’s elitism, or being out of touch with what actually goes on on a track at a HPDE; I’ve seen it my whole life with old road racers who never do HPDE’s looking down on drivers who choose to HPDE and insulting their craft by saying what they’re doing isn’t racing and shouldn’t be trying to go as fast as possible. My province has no problems running HPDE’s with the advanced group being allowed to pass anywhere with a point by and driver doing full on time attack laps. Sometimes there is even official timing. Groups are separated by experience/skill and then lap times. Because of how the groups are structured there is almost no passing happening at these events in the advanced groups. I was very skeptical of it at first, but it has worked well with no car on car incidents and only minor single car incidents; absolutely no measurable change in incidents vs our old rules of passing only on 1 or 2 straights major + everyone should be avoiding doing 100%, etc.



Saying people should be happy going at 70% pace at a HPDE because ‘70%’ is fun! is a lie to a majority of drivers. That’s not fun for a significant number of people, nor is it fun to be stuck in a conga line; nor is it safe to be stuck in a conga line. If you want everyone to enjoy your event understand there are very different types of people that go to these events and separate them and police them accordingly. If you can’t police them so that your event is safe and enjoyable you probably shouldn’t be running an event IMO because it’s a formula that can and does work.

Montaver

In theory maybe, but in reality what happens is trains form behind slow cars so they backup multiple cars. Other slower cars pass them slowly killing more time. On a 2 mile track (as per my example) a full run group is 40 cars at least. Often slower cars will line up in the middle, rather than at the back. For example at WGI when its full you can line up at the front, and be on top of cars pitting out because it takes so long to get everyone on track so you are straight into traffic. Similarly it takes so long to get everyone off, in a 20 minute session your actually getting 18 minutes at best. I think some groups have pushed density to the max this year to makeup for last years slow season, and its to the detriment of the experience (although that's another topic )

Montaver

Well said.

RobertR1

Maybe it's a different mindset in different places? Open groups in the bay area, most people I interacted with were timing themselves, looking for clean laps and seeing how they're improving.

needmoregarage

Regarding car separation, PCA has a track density of 18 cars maximum per mile of track, with fewer preferred. Obviously non-PCA clubs may have different minimum standards.

RobertR1

That would be 54 cars at Thunderhill for example. lol hard pass.

Pretty sure that'd be ncrc levels of traffic jam but maybe less oil spills and breakdowns.

TXE36

Dirty little secret: It is possible to set personal bests in traffic. If the participants know what they are doing, one can have a "clean lap" and PB with overtaking passes or being passed.

Nobody is suggesting that the entire session is running 70% off pace.

Looking at it another way, bitching about not improving due to the inability to "get a clean lap" is one of the threads of the Flat Out video for a reason...

dan212

Absolutely not. Situational awareness should be the key factor.

I generally stay in RED group because while age of cars and speeds can vary more widely than black - situational awareness is always high.