DTMiller

I've been reading this thread with a.deep and profound sense of deja Vu, regardless of which specific topic the thread has drifted to.

There are a.handful of core issues that spring from human psychology and individual's desires and drives that result in all the issues mentioned in this thread and unless someone can magically make people uniform in their wants and actions those issues will persist. It is fun to try to fix them, and I'm going to keep trying to fix them with the organizations I work with. But I also know I will fail.

In the interim, you can find me in the advanced group pointing you by and setting you up for success and hoping you are enjoying your day driving a car that would be an even exchange for a GT3 brake rotor.

ProCoach

BOOM!

txhokie4life

'They addressed it here in Texas for the CoTA events...

Split the advanced run group into two run groups. The first is the hooligans that drive the wheels off their cars... and then those of us with big motors :-)

The advanced students are alongside the instructors -- so there is no "instructor" only group.

I think part of it was economics -- having an instructor only group would cost too much track time at a very expensive track. But splitting the groups in two has been a huge success for fun factor.
As rewarding as it is for the miata/boxster/etc to get a point by in the Esses -- having someone barreling down into T12 with a 40mph+ speed differential is a bit intimidating.

Now everyone gets to play amongst comparable speed cars.

911 Rod

I'm 15 seconds behind the fastest car and I'm not the slowest car. But I probably work harder than anyone else!

RobertR1

It seems that people have missed an important point here: "I mean 10-15 slower than what their car can do" < if a driver is in the fastest group and is that far off their own car's potential, they're clearly not comfortable driving the car and don't need to be in an open group. I don't get what's hard about this or requires looping in fast guys in slower cars and having them flex.

TXE36

You don't know that they are not comfortable. "10-15 slower than what their car will do" is also quite arbitrary. So if an advanced driver hobbles his car by pulling a spark plug wire, but drives it "flat-out", that's okay?

It has more to do with how they interact with the other cars on the track. When driven properly, the speed difference doesn't matter all that much. We have thingys like mirrors and passing flags for a reason.

coss1600

Definitely not true. If a guy can't even hit the right lines, how am I suppose to trust passing him? As I said, the problem I am talking about isn't the car. I am talking about a driver in a GT3 driving in advanced driving way slower than someone in a stock Boxster. It's a huge problem if you are that far off the pace.

Zhao

^ I agree there. But from the perspective of running the event there is the question, is he that slow every lap or that slow for a handful of laps? Cooldown lap, troubleshooting a quirk, car isn’t running right today, etc? The other question is is the next slowest group a good match for him too? Is he passing everyone there like they’re pylons? The faster group may be the better spot for him if he doesn’t fit well into any group as it’s safer for a faster guy to pass a disaster of a driver than it is for a disaster of a driver to pass an amateur. So there could be legitimate reasons to leave someone like that in that group.



But yes, I agree, ideally someone running 15 seconds off what their car can do is running in a newbie group with an instructor and is far away from being put with the experienced fast drivers. It's probably their first event or first time at that track if they're that far off the pace.

TXE36

You guys are actually referring to issues that go way beyond just being slower which is why lap time here isn't really useful. Other measures of competence are more useful, such as consistency, situational awareness, etc...

I don't have an issue with a DTMiller out there in his Mazda mixing it up with GT-3s even though he is slower overall. He's probably making the GT-3s work for it on parts of the track.

ProCoach

I'm again disappointed that the conversation has devolved into a discussion of how to define a comparative and competitive differential between drivers, their cars and the group they run in, IN A DE!!!! This is bull****.

Mixed cars, car potential, driver experience and motivation ALL mix WELL together in cultures and events where the mission is clear and drivers are vetted for AWARENESS, COURTESY and SAFETY operating their cars on course and within the group.

Most people who are HEADS UP and are "slow" for the group self select. Most people who can't behave or demonstrate a skill set commensurate with that required for the group they are in, even if they are "up to speed," probably need counseling or need to be excused. There's a difference between those two kinds of drivers.

I don't know any organization that has the capacity or that doesn't run "time trials" or some other competition that includes those also running in a DE (this does happen on the West Coast) that could begin to establish who and what cars are "10 to 15 seconds off the pace of what their car can do" accurately.

The injection of a quantitative measure, especially comparing drivers to one a another that way, has no place in a HPDE, in my opinion.

HPDE's, like some forms of racing, can and should allow a place for drivers of ALL levels of skill, experience and motivation, as long as they're safe and follow the rules. Sheesh.

Zhao

^ I don’t really understand what you’re saying. It sounds like you’re saying ignore skill level, car type, etc for creating run groups at a lapping day? And it sounds like you’re saying it’s impossible for an organizer to determine what car is running 15 seconds off it’s potential?

Steve113

"most people who are HEADS UP and are "slow" for the group self select"

Peter hit the nail on the head. Heads up is heads up no matter what group you are . A slower driver with lots of experience can still decide what run group hes best suited for. Its not the speed of the cars its the speed of the brain and the ability to be aware of what's coming up and around you. We all know DE Advanced drivers and Lots of so called racers the are clueless of what's around them .

I guarantee Peter and I can be in the 2 most extreme cars from each other in terms of lap times and still be 100% safe to be on track together. Its ALL about knowing what's around you at all times.

Montaver

This is a persistent problem in DE and harder to solve I think. The slower cars end up being moving traffic cones at best if they are quick on the point by. I often see slower cars and think they would be having more fun in a lower group because they wouldn't have to live in their mirrors.

All this 'DE is mixed, you are there to have safe fun blah blah' is true. But I go to DE for the thrill and to try and better my driving skills, which to some degree involves looking at lap times. Setting lap times requires having a clear track where you can chase a friend or not be worried about getting held up constantly, which no matter how courteous the guys in the slow cars are they inevitably get in the way. I find it hilarious that racers are so dismissive of DE 'its just DE you are there to have fun not set lap times so deal with it' which is absolute rubbish. Go round a paddock and count how many people have AIM solos or Racechrono or whatever. On the test and tune days ironically its always the guy in his 'race car' driving at 6/10ths not checking their mirrors holding everyone up.

TXE36

Well, this is Rennlist...


Yup.

TXE36

I haven't experienced a driving organization yet that won't allow someone to self select into a lower run group if they feel that is better for them.

The above is practically bullcrap.

By definition, when you sign up for a 'DE, you are agreeing to share the track with others -- even those "inferior" to you. You want a clear track for you and your friends you can chase, rent the track yourselves and pay the commensurate amount! DE is not racing and you don't get the track to yourself. You are not guaranteed opportunities to set personal bests.

On that last point, no decent organization is going to tolerate that behavior either.

A mark of competent advanced run group with "slow cars" is at the end of the session, nobody remembers the slow cars.