View Poll Results: Which passing rules are better?
Current
59
85.51%
Proposed
10
14.49%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll
PCA passing rules
04-16-2018, 05:11 PM
#226
Three Wheelin'
There is also NO racing without overtaking, or without getting out of bed that morning. 
So we all seem to prefer (and hope for) the "gentlemanly" Scenario b in which a door is not slammed (and room is given), yet we understand that the rules are enforcing Scenario a in which a door could be "legally" slammed with no penalty for the "slammer" if contact is initiated. Assuming that we also agree that the rules should be consistent and non-contradicting, which one of these two sets of consistent rules would you prefer to race under?
(Scenario a):
1. The passing car has the responsibility to make a clean pass.
2. The car ahead at turn in has the corner.
OR
(Scenario b):
1. The car ahead at turn in does not own the corner.
2. Everyone must leave racing room.
Thx.
So we all seem to prefer (and hope for) the "gentlemanly" Scenario b in which a door is not slammed (and room is given), yet we understand that the rules are enforcing Scenario a in which a door could be "legally" slammed with no penalty for the "slammer" if contact is initiated. Assuming that we also agree that the rules should be consistent and non-contradicting, which one of these two sets of consistent rules would you prefer to race under?
(Scenario a):
1. The passing car has the responsibility to make a clean pass.
2. The car ahead at turn in has the corner.
OR
(Scenario b):
1. The car ahead at turn in does not own the corner.
2. Everyone must leave racing room.
Thx.
Now, does it happen, yes it does. I avoided dive bombing cup cars and GTB1 cars last weekend at Road Atlanta, because, like Gary said, I would rather finish than deal with an incident. In every instance I could have taken my normal line and the possibility of contact would have gone up dramatically. And afterwards said see here Scenario a protects me. But that is not the way I race nor want others to race me. There is a fine line between aggressive clean racing and just aggressive racing. Maybe I am reading your responses wrong, but many of them seem to state that you think that if you are even as little as a tenth faster than the car in front of you, they should get out your way. That is not racing. I have seen some very exciting races where a slightly slower car is able to keep a slightly faster car behind them while both cars raced cleanly and "respectfully" - which is the key IMO.
04-16-2018, 05:38 PM
#227
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Which also means the car being passed has to always assume he cannot apex a corner if there is a car coming up from behind because if he does there is the chance he gets dived bombed and accused of not leaving room. It comes back to the responsibility of the pass is left to the passing car and if that car thinks a dive bomb is okay, they are wrong. They are wrong in PCA, in SCCA and in professional racing, period.
Now, does it happen, yes it does. I avoided dive bombing cup cars and GTB1 cars last weekend at Road Atlanta, because, like Gary said, I would rather finish than deal with an incident. In every instance I could have taken my normal line and the possibility of contact would have gone up dramatically. And afterwards said see here Scenario a protects me. But that is not the way I race nor want others to race me. There is a fine line between aggressive clean racing and just aggressive racing. Maybe I am reading your responses wrong, but many of them seem to state that you think that if you are even as little as a tenth faster than the car in front of you, they should get out your way. That is not racing. I have seen some very exciting races where a slightly slower car is able to keep a slightly faster car behind them while both cars raced cleanly and "respectfully" - which is the key IMO.
So, I gather that you prefer the Scenario a) set of rules above (“The car ahead at turn-in has the corner...”)? I have no problem sticking with those if everyone prefers them to the Scenario b) set. That’s what we’re trying to find out.
I appreciate your reasoned input.
04-16-2018, 06:00 PM
#228
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The overlap is NOT a STATIC condition. The position of the cars, relative to each other, is not fixed. If it was, it would be a snap to adjudicate this.
But, because the overtaking car is the ONLY car that has a clear view of the both cars relative position, closing speed and judging the intersection of each, it's the OVERTAKING car's responsibility.
The most successful passing opportunity begins at the exit of the previous corner.
If I can't draw alongside, place my car in their sight line BEFORE they can screw me by saying "they couldn't see me," or take away their ability to turn in ON me by placing my car slightly ahead, then I can't pass safely.
Seems simple to me.
Judging an overtaken driver's defensive move or, heaven forbid, trying to "draw a charge" in this situation, is sort of like the judge's description of pornography. "I know it when I see it..."
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www.peterkrause.net
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Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
04-16-2018, 06:00 PM
#229
Rennlist Member
Gary, do you think that the enforcement of Scenario b ("...does not own the corner. Everyone must leave racing room.") by punishing the outside passed ("chopper") car with a 13 for the contact would encourage awareness and lower the frequency of this chop happening? Do you think that the enforcement of Scenario a ("The car ahead at turn in has the corner...") by punishing the inside passing car with a 13 for the contact discourages awareness on the part of the outside passed car and increases the frequency of this chop happening?
NO one owns the corner.
If you can't get your car fully alongside the car being passed going into the corner back out and try again.
Rules will not make someone more aware, if you happen to be in his blind spot and you hope for the best... good luck
As I stated earlier, this is supposed to be fun and an accident, regardless of who is at fault, does not fit that description
All this discussion is great, but my thought is all it does is better define fault AFTER an accident. I'd rather avoid winning or losing in that situation.
04-16-2018, 06:29 PM
#231
Rennlist Member
This kind of over-analyzing scares me! 😳
Rules aside, you learn to race better with experience. It is good to be a safe driver at the begining even if it means being less “ racy”
Rules aside, you learn to race better with experience. It is good to be a safe driver at the begining even if it means being less “ racy”
04-16-2018, 06:34 PM
#232
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
As I stated earlier, this is supposed to be fun and an accident, regardless of who is at fault, does not fit that description
All this discussion is great, but my thought is all it does is better define fault AFTER an accident. I'd rather avoid winning or losing in that situation.
All this discussion is great, but my thought is all it does is better define fault AFTER an accident. I'd rather avoid winning or losing in that situation.
04-16-2018, 06:41 PM
#233
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Don't be scared. I've been racing for ten years. It's scarier to race under rules which allow for two conflicting scenarios to develop.
04-16-2018, 06:48 PM
#234
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
(Scenario a):
1. The passing car has the responsibility to make a clean pass.
2. The car ahead at turn in has the corner.
OR
(Scenario b):
1. The car ahead at turn in does not own the corner.
2. Everyone must leave racing room.
Btw, the current PCA rules include ALL of the above, as they are copied above almost verbatim.
04-16-2018, 08:06 PM
#235
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From an enforceable, rules based perspective, I support the clarity and accountability in a).
I described to you, which you quoted, the conditions I must fulfill to make the pass according to scenario a).
As I said before, my best friends and I look out for each other and undertake scenario b) all the time. One of the things that’s strengthened our friendship.
But it’s hard to assign responsibility for a contact incident when the wording of scenario b) exists to moderate the stark, clear scenario a).
I described to you, which you quoted, the conditions I must fulfill to make the pass according to scenario a).
As I said before, my best friends and I look out for each other and undertake scenario b) all the time. One of the things that’s strengthened our friendship.
But it’s hard to assign responsibility for a contact incident when the wording of scenario b) exists to moderate the stark, clear scenario a).
04-16-2018, 08:21 PM
#236
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
From an enforceable, rules based perspective, I support the clarity and accountability in a).
I described to you, which you quoted, the conditions I must fulfill to make the pass according to scenario a).
As I said before, my best friends and I look out for each other and undertake scenario b) all the time. One of the things that’s strengthened our friendship.
But it’s hard to assign responsibility for a contact incident when the wording of scenario b) exists to moderate the stark, clear scenario a).
I described to you, which you quoted, the conditions I must fulfill to make the pass according to scenario a).
As I said before, my best friends and I look out for each other and undertake scenario b) all the time. One of the things that’s strengthened our friendship.
But it’s hard to assign responsibility for a contact incident when the wording of scenario b) exists to moderate the stark, clear scenario a).
04-16-2018, 08:45 PM
#237
Rennlist Member
Trust is not earned with a handshake, as you quickly found out in your 1st PCA race. In racing we earn the trust of others as they earn ours, and the racing itself benefits. Hf1, you shook the wrong hand and didn't have the PCA racing experience to know it, and now you want the rules to either morph/change or the racers involved to meet your expectations of abiding by them. I guess I had the wrong mindset as I have always treated Club Racing as an experience shared among (some old, some new) friends.. Don't get me wrong, I want more clarity and less ambivalence in how they are written but listen to what I have heard SO many times at the racer's meeting before we all start.. (excuse my inaccuracy) .. "take care of each other out there, we are all friends".. and i'm done with this, thank you.
04-16-2018, 09:34 PM
#238
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04-16-2018, 10:04 PM
#240
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Trust is not earned with a handshake, as you quickly found out in your 1st PCA race. In racing we earn the trust of others as they earn ours, and the racing itself benefits. Hf1, you shook the wrong hand and didn't have the PCA racing experience to know it, and now you want the rules to either morph/change or the racers involved to meet your expectations of abiding by them. I guess I had the wrong mindset as I have always treated Club Racing as an experience shared among (some old, some new) friends.. Don't get me wrong, I want more clarity and less ambivalence in how they are written but listen to what I have heard SO many times at the racer's meeting before we all start.. (excuse my inaccuracy) .. "take care of each other out there, we are all friends".. and i'm done with this, thank you.