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View Poll Results: Which passing rules are better?
Current
59
85.51%
Proposed
10
14.49%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

PCA passing rules

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Old 08-05-2017, 01:34 PM
  #1  
hf1
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Default PCA passing rules

Which passing rules are safer, clearer (less confusing/contradicting), and altogether better?

Current:
1.The driver attempting a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
2.The car ahead at turn in has the corner but does not “own” the corner.
3.Everyone must leave racing room.

Proposed:
Whenever there is ANY overlap established between two (or more) cars, each car MUST leave racing room for the other(s).

(The 13/13 probation/penalty system remains under both choices.)

I submit that the PCA passing rules as they stand are confusing, contradictory, and, as such, do not contribute to safety and co-existence on the track.

Rule 1 is vague and contradicts BOTH Rules 2 and 3.
Rule 2 contradicts both ITSELF and Rule 3.
Rule 3 is vague.

You may have a better set of rules -- and feel free to propose and discuss them in the thread -- but for the purposes of this poll, please only express your preference between the two choices given.

I submit that the proposed single rule is followed and respected by most top racers in most series and classes (including PCA) regardless of whether it is officially stated or contradicted in the rules or not. From my experience racing and talks with racers from a wide range of series and backgrounds, this rule appears to be the de-facto "Golden Rule" of what most racers consider to be proper and fair racing.

I submit that the top racers in most PCA classes, and specifically SPB, also have a "secret hand-shake" gentleman's agreement to race each other under the proposed Golden Rule vs. the official PCA rules as they stand.

An example in support of this: Given that the top 5 SPB racers at LRP are within 0.5 sec of each other, and assuming all of them drive consistently within 0.5 sec of their best lap-times, there is NO place at LRP (including the Main Straight) where one car could gain ONE FULL CAR LENGTH against another which would be required for a legal pass under Rule 2 (100% overlap before turn-in). And yet, passes between them occur and positions change, and not only on the Main Straight either.

PCA club racing will be safer if the official rules match the unwritten (hand-shake, gentleman's) rules by which most (good) racers already race.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:12 PM
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Gary R.
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Originally Posted by hf1 View Post
Which passing rules are safer, clearer (less confusing/contradicting), and altogether better?

Current:
1.The driver attempting a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
2.The car ahead at turn in has the corner but does not “own” the corner.
3.Everyone must leave racing room.

Proposed:
Whenever there is ANY overlap established between two (or more) cars, each car MUST leave racing room for the other(s).

(The 13/13 probation/penalty system remains under both choices.)

I submit that the PCA passing rules as they stand are confusing, contradictory, and, as such, do not contribute to safety and co-existence on the track.

Rule 1 is vague and contradicts BOTH Rules 2 and 3.
Rule 2 contradicts both ITSELF and Rule 3.
Rule 3 is vague.

You may have a better set of rules -- and feel free to propose and discuss them in the thread -- but for the purposes of this poll, please only express your preference between the two choices given.

I submit that the proposed single rule is followed and respected by most top racers in most series and classes (including PCA) regardless of whether it is officially stated or contradicted in the rules or not. From my experience racing and talks with racers from a wide range of series and backgrounds, this rule appears to be the de-facto "Golden Rule" of what most racers consider to be proper and fair racing.

I submit that the top racers in most PCA classes, and specifically SPB, also have a "secret hand-shake" gentleman's agreement to race each other under the proposed Golden Rule vs. the official PCA rules as they stand.

An example in support of this: Given that the top 5 SPB racers at LRP are within 0.5 sec of each other, and assuming all of them drive consistently within 0.5 sec of their best lap-times, there is NO place at LRP (including the Main Straight) where one car could gain ONE FULL CAR LENGTH against another which would be required for a legal pass under Rule 2 (100% overlap before turn-in). And yet, passes between them occur and positions change, and not only on the Main Straight either.

PCA club racing will be safer if the official rules match the unwritten (hand-shake, gentleman's) rules by which most (good) racers already race.

Another 20 pages..
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:17 PM
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Passing is never a static situation...

Always a dynamic one.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ProCoach
Passing is never a static situation...

Always a dynamic one.
+1
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:28 PM
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Nizer
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Think the proposed rule assumes too much of the car being passed given it's a club racing environment with regular first-time racer intake. Also suspect that it would be difficult for stewards to adjudicate in a consistent manner.

Example: lead car starts transition from turn in to apex, following car leaves braking too late and gets nose of car just inside rear bumper of lead car, contact is made and lead car spins. Who's at fault? Where do you draw the line? Are stewards going to be expected to micro manage when and what defines overlap?
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:43 PM
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Paul Solk
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Wow...


No question, current rules, they are the only ones that matter. I think maybe you are better suited to one of the top race series you continually reference as clearly the current rules for PCA that everyone else abides by do not seem to appeal to you. Honestly, if you feel you need to change the rules of a race series for it to fit your racing style then it probably isn't for you.

If the top racers have a secret "handshake" agreement it is because they have developed trust over many hours of running side by side and nose to tail with each other and as such there is also a level of predictability involved. That is earned, not given by the rules... Based on both of your videos from the other thread you would not meet the criteria of the handshake agreement to begin with.

Kind of sad that after all the feedback from the other thread rather than taking it all in and re-assessing you seem to be as steadfast as ever you did nothing wrong and it is the rules fault and as such they should change.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Solk View Post
Wow...

No question, current rules, they are the only ones that matter.

If the top racers have a secret "handshake" agreement it is because they have developed trust over many hours of running side by side and nose to tail with each other and as such there is also a level of predictability involved.

That is earned, not given by the rules...
BAM! YES!

THIS LAST SENTENCE!

Thank you, Paul.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ProCoach View Post
BAM! YES!

THIS LAST SENTENCE!

Thank you, Paul.
Just my opinion but this is Club Racing, hence a big part of it is how comfortable you make other people feel sharing the track with you. That only comes by demonstrating consistent and repetitive judgement, awareness and execution. No one with an X on that car has met that requirement myself included.

I can tell you that as a Rookie I come into this with 150% commitment that it is my responsibility to adhere to the rules, be aware, be safe, be predictable and not do anything to endanger myself or anyone else I am sharing the track with. MY responsibility!

If you can't adjust and share that mindset then quite frankly I wouldn't want to share a track with you...
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:00 PM
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Great advice, as always guys!
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:17 PM
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Here is the problem, and this stems from the video of the "passing " issue and questions.

the problem with the proposed rule, and Peter eludes to this, is that passing is dynamic. so, if there is "any " overlap, this doesnt address the possibility of the lead car NOT seeing the passing car. This puts the onus on the passing car to be more aware and rightfully so. So, i vote , leave the rule alone and teach those that pass that part of the racing craft is to be a little "Sun Tzu " /"art of war" like. Know your opponent, not only generally, but know what he is going to do anywhere on the track.. if you dont know, or can predict, you are going to lose... or in our case, make contact, much of the time.

sure, racing room should be given when you are going door to door, and slamming a door is not 13/13 rule friendly. However, again, it goes back to race craft.. make your moves so they are seen, and/or you have a back up plan if you are not. its nice to have a lapped car see you coming and make room, but in the same car performance, there is a reason you are lapping him and much of that is driver based....so, keep that in mind. many cars have been lost by NOT respecting the passed car's ability... both driver and car.

Originally Posted by hf1 View Post
Which passing rules are safer, clearer (less confusing/contradicting), and altogether better?

Current:
1.The driver attempting a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
2.The car ahead at turn in has the corner but does not “own” the corner.
3.Everyone must leave racing room.

Proposed:
Whenever there is ANY overlap established between two (or more) cars, each car MUST leave racing room for the other(s).

(The 13/13 probation/penalty system remains under both choices.)

I submit that the PCA passing rules as they stand are confusing, contradictory, and, as such, do not contribute to safety and co-existence on the track.

Rule 1 is vague and contradicts BOTH Rules 2 and 3.
Rule 2 contradicts both ITSELF and Rule 3.
Rule 3 is vague.

You may have a better set of rules -- and feel free to propose and discuss them in the thread -- but for the purposes of this poll, please only express your preference between the two choices given.

I submit that the proposed single rule is followed and respected by most top racers in most series and classes (including PCA) regardless of whether it is officially stated or contradicted in the rules or not. From my experience racing and talks with racers from a wide range of series and backgrounds, this rule appears to be the de-facto "Golden Rule" of what most racers consider to be proper and fair racing.

I submit that the top racers in most PCA classes, and specifically SPB, also have a "secret hand-shake" gentleman's agreement to race each other under the proposed Golden Rule vs. the official PCA rules as they stand.

An example in support of this: Given that the top 5 SPB racers at LRP are within 0.5 sec of each other, and assuming all of them drive consistently within 0.5 sec of their best lap-times, there is NO place at LRP (including the Main Straight) where one car could gain ONE FULL CAR LENGTH against another which would be required for a legal pass under Rule 2 (100% overlap before turn-in). And yet, passes between them occur and positions change, and not only on the Main Straight either.

PCA club racing will be safer if the official rules match the unwritten (hand-shake, gentleman's) rules by which most (good) racers already race.

Last edited by mark kibort; 08-05-2017 at 03:54 PM. Reason: spelling errors
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:18 PM
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Frank 993 C4S
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Current Rules!

If you think they are vague and contradict each other, I'd suggest you have a discussion with some of the most experienced long time racers that all have one thing in common: They usually don't cause incidents no matter who they are passing, whether each other or lapping a slower car. Look at their video and get an explanation how they make their decisions.

I tend to run at the pointy end of the grid in one of the most competitive PCA classes and I have to disappoint you but there is no secret handshake, just a lot of mutual respect for the rules and each other and each other's equipment.
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:37 PM
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This passing rule discussion has been going on forever. At least as long as I've been racing with PCA. Almost 10 years. That's a clear indication that a revision is warranted.

PCA's passing rule is unlike any other in club racing. Everyone keeps saying "this is club racing" It's still racing and those other series are clubs too so that argument doesn't hold a lot of water. Overlap is a critical component that is flatly ignored by the current rule. In fact the current rule lets the lead car essentially operate with reckless abandon if they chose. We've all seen it. We've all been on the receiving end of it. There are more than a few who use the rule as a weapon. I've had actual conversations with those that do.

Passing is dynamic. To establish who owns the corner at turn in while adamantly stating no one owns the corner is just silly. If we all really did observe that to the letter then the only passing in a PCA club race would be on a straight. Clearly that isn't true so why on Earth do we have a rule that basically states passing can only happen on a straight?

For all their perceived flaws, NASA has a pretty good section in their rules about passing. It has diagrams and everything that I think are a better tool for the stewards to establish blame when necessary. The NASA rules realize that the pass is dynamic and fault is established given the relative positions of the two cars at the point of contact. That's an important distinction and one PCA lacks. Fault is established by the PCA rules in some cases quite some distant prior to the contact.

In a nutshell PCA assumes that every passer is a dive bomber and rewards the chop.

Hard to reconcile that with close racing and close racing exists in every class.

That being said I think the proposed rule to vote on is not thorough enough. My vote is essentially against the current rule but not necessarily for the proposed rule without some modifications.
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Old 08-05-2017, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Streak View Post
This passing rule discussion has been going on forever. At least as long as I've been racing with PCA. Almost 10 years. That's a clear indication that a revision is warranted.

PCA's passing rule is unlike any other in club racing. Everyone keeps saying "this is club racing" It's still racing and those other series are clubs too so that argument doesn't hold a lot of water. Overlap is a critical component that is flatly ignored by the current rule. In fact the current rule lets the lead car essentially operate with reckless abandon if they chose. We've all seen it. We've all been on the receiving end of it. There are more than a few who use the rule as a weapon. I've had actual conversations with those that do.

Passing is dynamic. To establish who owns the corner at turn in while adamantly stating no one owns the corner is just silly. If we all really did observe that to the letter then the only passing in a PCA club race would be on a straight. Clearly that isn't true so why on Earth do we have a rule that basically states passing can only happen on a straight?

For all their perceived flaws, NASA has a pretty good section in their rules about passing. It has diagrams and everything that I think are a better tool for the stewards to establish blame when necessary. The NASA rules realize that the pass is dynamic and fault is established given the relative positions of the two cars at the point of contact. That's an important distinction and one PCA lacks. Fault is established by the PCA rules in some cases quite some distant prior to the contact.

In a nutshell PCA assumes that every passer is a dive bomber and rewards the chop.

Hard to reconcile that with close racing and close racing exists in every class.

That being said I think the proposed rule to vote on is not thorough enough. My vote is essentially against the current rule but not necessarily for the proposed rule without some modifications.
The line I made bold is the most important line. PCA is NOT meant to be like other racing. PCA is meant to be gentleman's racing with NO exchange of paint. If you think there's a chance of contact you are expected to back off, even a small chance. If you want more aggressive racing than that go to a different racing club event.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:19 PM
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Actually, as pointed out in another thread, there is thirty-five years of successful history, with over thirty other clubs and hundreds of individual historic racing events, using THIS exact rule. Successfully.

PCA Club Racing lifted it from Vintage and Historic Racing verbatim. Tens of thousands of other drivers process and understand this rule successfully, without the Sturm und Drang present here...

That's why coming into PCA Club Racing in 2012 after decades in vintage threw me for a loop.

It's not the rule that's different, it's BOTH the competitor's take and organization's application of it that were so stark a difference to me...

But, for the most part, it works.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:33 PM
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Are you still complaining about being given a 13. Please you were at fault. Live with it, move on. Literally 1,000s of races have been held under these rules with no issues.
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