Fast and Furious Paul Walker killed in CGT
12-03-2013 | 03:42 PM
#241
Pro
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 541
Likes: 38
From: Laurel Canyon @ Mulholland
In a news interview on knx1070, local L.A. Ca. Radio station, Mr. Jim Torp and his son were the first responders. They emptied 7 fire bottles into the car, saw the two men in there, but couldn't put down the engulfing blaze. Another bystander that tried to help was detained by law enforcement for disobeying orders to back off. The Torps are very brave to say the least, they risked their lives to save these men.
12-03-2013 | 04:41 PM
#242
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
From: Santa Barbara, CA
I met Paul briefly a couple of times in our local pizzeria on the Mesa in Santa Barbara where Paul also lived. He seemed like such a down to earth, super nice guy with not an air about him. Such a tragedy for both of them to pass away like this. RIP.
-Christian
-Christian
12-03-2013 | 04:42 PM
#243
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
According to a witness. They said the car was being reversed into the garage when it started stalling. That's when they decided to take it for a spin. In other words not to joyride but to identify the problem.
There must be some link between the stalling car and the crash.
What could make the car stall and layer make it hard to control? The steering?
There must be some link between the stalling car and the crash.
What could make the car stall and layer make it hard to control? The steering?
12-03-2013 | 05:38 PM
#244
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 793
Likes: 1
From: Pennsylvania
You could be right? There is a video posted on Teamspeed.......the GT is INTACT and is on fire! seems like the two involved were trapped! .......also same thread exact spot where the GT ended up at, a GAS LINE/METER is evident. OMG talk about the wrong place at the wrong time......RIP to both and prayers for their families :0(
I've seen a few high speed super car wrecks over the years (pictures) and this one lookos like one of those.
RIP to both drivers. Most of us have sped on public roads at one time or another, this hits close.
12-03-2013 | 05:41 PM
#245
Racer
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 301
Likes: 1
From: Midwest
I used to see him at the Home Depot in goleta from time to time... Rolling up his sleeves on the weekends. By all accounts a regular down to earth guy. Very sad indeed.
12-03-2013 | 06:07 PM
#246
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 1
From: Official Jack off extinguisher
According to a witness. They said the car was being reversed into the garage when it started stalling. That's when they decided to take it for a spin. In other words not to joyride but to identify the problem.
There must be some link between the stalling car and the crash.
What could make the car stall and layer make it hard to control? The steering?
There must be some link between the stalling car and the crash.
What could make the car stall and layer make it hard to control? The steering?
12-03-2013 | 07:00 PM
#247
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 771
Likes: 32
From: Indian Land, SC
Obviously, Roger lost control of the CGT, for whatever reason, mechanical failure, cold tires with hard acceleration, perhaps accelerating on those reflectors on the road, but I am convinced he reacted to the snap oversteer like a race car driver by putting both feet in. Clutch and Brake. Had he not done this, and he tried to correct, the CGT would have started to spin. Take a look at the video just after the crash. The skid marks clearly show the CGT was sideways and going straight towards the light post. For all we know, he probably decided not to attempt to save the oversteer by over correcting which would have sent the CGT spinning into oncoming traffic. He did the safest maneuver given what he was faced with, a car that has oversteered beyond saving. It is just tragic that the light post was in the one spot that ended up killing them. What a shame.
12-03-2013 | 08:47 PM
#248
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,039
Likes: 4
From: Orlando
You can see the CGT's skid marks already started, from where the car shooting the video is located. That looks to be at least 40 ft from the crash site. The skid marks are faint and then get dark right before the curb. Sorry, but a CGT would scrub off most if not all of 45 mph in 40 ft (or more) without a sweat. Plus, I'd like to think Porsche builds a stronger car than one that will collapse like that , at 45mph. Also, that road looks very straight so I don't think a 15mph limit would really have been due to a tight turn or dangerous road. Would there be any insurance interest in knowing if the car was speeding or not? In terms of who much they would pay out, or if they could somehow get out of paying to due driver's recklessness?
I've seen a few high speed super car wrecks over the years (pictures) and this one lookos like one of those.
RIP to both drivers. Most of us have sped on public roads at one time or another, this hits close.
I've seen a few high speed super car wrecks over the years (pictures) and this one lookos like one of those.
RIP to both drivers. Most of us have sped on public roads at one time or another, this hits close.
12-03-2013 | 09:32 PM
#249
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,611
Likes: 140
From: Memphis/Chicago
12-03-2013 | 10:58 PM
#250
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
interesting. can't really trust the news guys to get it right. even during the newscast he changed his story about what was happening (light smoke for 60seconds vs 60seconds of nothing clipped out). why would they show us an edited video? where is a timestamp?
i do believe the heavy black smoke is when the tires probably caught.
but otherwise i don't see anything here that indicates there wasn't a fire immediately. it's inconclusive as presented i think.
i do believe the heavy black smoke is when the tires probably caught.
but otherwise i don't see anything here that indicates there wasn't a fire immediately. it's inconclusive as presented i think.
12-03-2013 | 11:24 PM
#251
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 16,523
Likes: 82
From: Bend, OR
It's comforting to me to know there are multiple armchair/computer accident forensics experts here, that can ID what happened. I guess we attribute such skills and the time to exercise them, to this "horrible economy".
12-04-2013 | 12:44 AM
#252
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 815
Likes: 86
This cnn video is scary -- in particular, the way that first light pole went down so quickly is just unbelievable. The force needed to do that must have been tremendous. I'm no physicist, but doesn't force = mass x acceleration? If so, and consistent with the initial police reports, I am guessing the speed (acceleration) that they were carrying must have been pretty good.
12-04-2013 | 01:03 AM
#253
Track Day
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco
bad luck or poor skills?
For many of us, this thread brings up uncomfortable questions. For many of us, we wonder why it was not us at one point
I find that many of the comments look for a "cause" of the accident but, as in plane crashes, I think there was a series of unfortunate events that led to these two gentlemen losing their lives way too young. For example, sliding sideways in a car is not in and of itself deadly. And the car did not just spontaneously blow up. Obviously the driver left the road and then hit something that looks like it collided with the gas tank. What are the odds? I think it was just bad luck.
I am of 2 minds on the CGT: on the one hand, if you turn off traction control, DST, PSM, etc on any car at some speed, you will end up with similar handling to a CGT at the limit. It's physics and Porsche did not suspend Newton's laws when they built this car.
On the other hand, why do we find so many CGT driver's emerging with this "you don't understand" type of commentary as if they'd seen a ghost? You don't hear this from Ferrari F40 and GTO drivers and you certainly see fewer of these crazy crashes.
I was going to buy a CGT but lost my nerve when I realized each owner had been through a serious scare in the car and decided they didn't want to tempt fate again...
I find that many of the comments look for a "cause" of the accident but, as in plane crashes, I think there was a series of unfortunate events that led to these two gentlemen losing their lives way too young. For example, sliding sideways in a car is not in and of itself deadly. And the car did not just spontaneously blow up. Obviously the driver left the road and then hit something that looks like it collided with the gas tank. What are the odds? I think it was just bad luck.
I am of 2 minds on the CGT: on the one hand, if you turn off traction control, DST, PSM, etc on any car at some speed, you will end up with similar handling to a CGT at the limit. It's physics and Porsche did not suspend Newton's laws when they built this car.
On the other hand, why do we find so many CGT driver's emerging with this "you don't understand" type of commentary as if they'd seen a ghost? You don't hear this from Ferrari F40 and GTO drivers and you certainly see fewer of these crazy crashes.
I was going to buy a CGT but lost my nerve when I realized each owner had been through a serious scare in the car and decided they didn't want to tempt fate again...
12-04-2013 | 03:17 AM
#254
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 1
From: Official Jack off extinguisher
^
I can answer that for you
A F40/50/Enzo or similar have a lot of "drama" aka they are not very smooth, lots of mechanical noises, "race car feel" nostalgia non sense etc once you get in , the average buyer is already scared and usually treats them as art sitting in some garage
Porsches are incredibly smooth, they allow you to go faster with no fuss, rain or shine, and that goes back to the 930, for its time very linear but once you go above it needed a very experienced hand and some *****, similar to the current high end Porsche offerings and especially the GT. The car puts you to sleep because it makes it feel so effortless but once you get close to the limit , the law of physics still apply to those owners who run out of skill/talent real quick with , in this case , catasthrophic results.
There are thousands of posts on Rennlist bemoaning Porsches decision to include electronic driver aids , "we don't need no stinking nannies", well, Porsche did build a car without those safety nets due to those well heeled loud mouths and now the complainers don't like the results.........
Anyway, Walker was a actor, Rodas was a financial planer, no disrespect but those were their true talents , enthusiasts, sure but "Pro Drivers or "World class" they are not, the proof is in the pudding, real Pro's bred from a very early age crash and sometimes die on closed tracks not in residential business parks, they Know the risks and treat it accordingly on public streets.
In past times they were called "Gentleman racers" and history books are full with their deadly crashes.
I can answer that for you
A F40/50/Enzo or similar have a lot of "drama" aka they are not very smooth, lots of mechanical noises, "race car feel" nostalgia non sense etc once you get in , the average buyer is already scared and usually treats them as art sitting in some garage
Porsches are incredibly smooth, they allow you to go faster with no fuss, rain or shine, and that goes back to the 930, for its time very linear but once you go above it needed a very experienced hand and some *****, similar to the current high end Porsche offerings and especially the GT. The car puts you to sleep because it makes it feel so effortless but once you get close to the limit , the law of physics still apply to those owners who run out of skill/talent real quick with , in this case , catasthrophic results.
There are thousands of posts on Rennlist bemoaning Porsches decision to include electronic driver aids , "we don't need no stinking nannies", well, Porsche did build a car without those safety nets due to those well heeled loud mouths and now the complainers don't like the results.........
Anyway, Walker was a actor, Rodas was a financial planer, no disrespect but those were their true talents , enthusiasts, sure but "Pro Drivers or "World class" they are not, the proof is in the pudding, real Pro's bred from a very early age crash and sometimes die on closed tracks not in residential business parks, they Know the risks and treat it accordingly on public streets.
In past times they were called "Gentleman racers" and history books are full with their deadly crashes.
12-04-2013 | 03:26 AM
#255
Track Day
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Thanks for sharing this, it's great to hear helpful things about the car, especially about the tires, which can apply for all drivers, whether you track the car or not.
OK, I'm a Carrera GT owner with dozens of track events @ Putnam Park and Mid-Ohio in this car. I have many thousands of laps of experience at Mid-Ohio in Porsches and BMWs of all sorts. I completely understand the "difficult to master" reputation the CGT gets. I've spun it at both tracks with (fortunately) no ill effects. I made two changes to the as-delivered setup that calmed it way down for me.
1) I moved the rear anti-roll bar setting from "medium" to "soft" by changing the drop link position from the middle hole of the 3 available to the hole at the tip of the rear bar. This reduced the tendency to oversteer in my hands by a significant amount. By exactly how much? I was able to improve my track times by 4 to 5 seconds per lap with only this adjustment, nothing else.
In my non-expert opinion, the CGT seems to have been "optimized" for track quickness in the hands of drivers who don't mind running pretty high rear slip angles. If one observes typical side-force vs. slip-angle curves for modern tires, running a significant rear slip angle might help eek out a higher side force while right at the edge. For a driver used to the rear slip angle, it could be faster. For drivers used to driving 911s, that much greasy feeling at the rear starts alarm bells ringing and is not well tolerated. I didn't much like it. Maybe I'm a wus, but it's my experience in spirited driving that a touch of basic understeer leaves some "design margin" for use by the driver if something unexpected occurs.
I have no idea for what use the "tight" position of the rear bar was created. Drifting competitions?
2) I changed from the OEM Pilot Sport tires to Michelin Super Sports as soon as they were available in the USA. The OEM tires were quite temperature sensitive as street tires go. If they were not "up to temperature", they didn't have prodigious grip. After a few warm up laps at the track, they were pretty sticky when new. Driving to and from the track, they could be quite "interesting" if driven on cold roads.
Apparently, the special sizes of the CGT tires made them unprofitable to manufacture at regular intervals. After the initial production runs in 2004/2005, Michelin appeared not to make any more until 2008/2009 (judging by the sidewall markings). Every time I would buy "new" tires to replace those heat-cycled-at-the-track, they didn't seem to be any better than the degraded tires they replaced. Well, both sets were the same age and the "new" tires had been "pre-heat-cycled" by having been stored for years in a hot warehouse. The older they were, the less grippy they proved to be. "New" or not.
The Michelin Super Sport tire was a huge improvement. It is way less temperature sensitive and much better in the rain for transit legs to and from the track. They seem to be a few seconds faster at the track compared to freshly molded OEM tires. Recently, Porsche put them through their tire testing approval program and they are now available in "N0" certification. Some press accounts maintain that these tires alone have "transformed" the Carrera GT into an all time great handling car.
So, if a CGT hasn't had benefit of the rear bar adjustment and the fitting of Super Sport tires, it might deserve a more harsh description than most 600+ hp cars of its age. But, I love mine the way it is, now. One still must respect the power/weight ratio and its street-tire traction levels, but it is in no way dangerous to drive.
BTW, I had a brake-booster hydraulic pump failure occur in my car. It dribbled brake fluid onto the inside of the front carbon under trays, but it never reached the tires.
1) I moved the rear anti-roll bar setting from "medium" to "soft" by changing the drop link position from the middle hole of the 3 available to the hole at the tip of the rear bar. This reduced the tendency to oversteer in my hands by a significant amount. By exactly how much? I was able to improve my track times by 4 to 5 seconds per lap with only this adjustment, nothing else.
In my non-expert opinion, the CGT seems to have been "optimized" for track quickness in the hands of drivers who don't mind running pretty high rear slip angles. If one observes typical side-force vs. slip-angle curves for modern tires, running a significant rear slip angle might help eek out a higher side force while right at the edge. For a driver used to the rear slip angle, it could be faster. For drivers used to driving 911s, that much greasy feeling at the rear starts alarm bells ringing and is not well tolerated. I didn't much like it. Maybe I'm a wus, but it's my experience in spirited driving that a touch of basic understeer leaves some "design margin" for use by the driver if something unexpected occurs.
I have no idea for what use the "tight" position of the rear bar was created. Drifting competitions?
2) I changed from the OEM Pilot Sport tires to Michelin Super Sports as soon as they were available in the USA. The OEM tires were quite temperature sensitive as street tires go. If they were not "up to temperature", they didn't have prodigious grip. After a few warm up laps at the track, they were pretty sticky when new. Driving to and from the track, they could be quite "interesting" if driven on cold roads.
Apparently, the special sizes of the CGT tires made them unprofitable to manufacture at regular intervals. After the initial production runs in 2004/2005, Michelin appeared not to make any more until 2008/2009 (judging by the sidewall markings). Every time I would buy "new" tires to replace those heat-cycled-at-the-track, they didn't seem to be any better than the degraded tires they replaced. Well, both sets were the same age and the "new" tires had been "pre-heat-cycled" by having been stored for years in a hot warehouse. The older they were, the less grippy they proved to be. "New" or not.
The Michelin Super Sport tire was a huge improvement. It is way less temperature sensitive and much better in the rain for transit legs to and from the track. They seem to be a few seconds faster at the track compared to freshly molded OEM tires. Recently, Porsche put them through their tire testing approval program and they are now available in "N0" certification. Some press accounts maintain that these tires alone have "transformed" the Carrera GT into an all time great handling car.
So, if a CGT hasn't had benefit of the rear bar adjustment and the fitting of Super Sport tires, it might deserve a more harsh description than most 600+ hp cars of its age. But, I love mine the way it is, now. One still must respect the power/weight ratio and its street-tire traction levels, but it is in no way dangerous to drive.
BTW, I had a brake-booster hydraulic pump failure occur in my car. It dribbled brake fluid onto the inside of the front carbon under trays, but it never reached the tires.