Fast and Furious Paul Walker killed in CGT
12-01-2013, 05:46 PM
#91
12-01-2013, 05:51 PM
#92
Rennlist Member
The subject plumbing shown in pics was water, with a backflow preventer, as required in CA in recent construction years.
It is indeed sad. Nobody knows what happened, so to cast aspersions (as in the other post on this thread) is useless, and I doubt anyone here has not done something on the street that they shouldn't have.
It is indeed sad. Nobody knows what happened, so to cast aspersions (as in the other post on this thread) is useless, and I doubt anyone here has not done something on the street that they shouldn't have.
This little industrial park probably a popular "track" location!? And being a weekend no witnesses.
They must have traveled that long corner at high speed and lost it.
Location of the CGT's terrible accident. Apparently there is an above ground gas line right where the car came to rest that may have added fuel to the fire.
https://www.google.com/maps/preview#...RbkA!2e0&fid=5
Very sad!!!! RIP!
They must have traveled that long corner at high speed and lost it.
Location of the CGT's terrible accident. Apparently there is an above ground gas line right where the car came to rest that may have added fuel to the fire.
https://www.google.com/maps/preview#...RbkA!2e0&fid=5
Very sad!!!! RIP!
12-01-2013, 06:06 PM
#94
Track Day
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So true and very sad indeed that a spin around the block can turn tragically like this. A car like the CGT should be opened up on the track and not in the streets. I feel like a hypocrite typing this.
12-01-2013, 06:13 PM
#95
Burning Brakes
12-01-2013, 06:34 PM
#97
Nordschleife Master
I would bet that 99% of us have escaped tragedy while at the wheel. We should give thanks and resist the temptation. Lesson learned. Think about your family and the pain they will endure. Being in medicine and Mountian Rescue we see it often. Usually a quick blast of hormone followed by poor decisions.
12-01-2013, 06:43 PM
#98
Burning Brakes
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Our prayers are today with the families of Roger Rodas and Paul Walker. And may the two victims rest in peace!
I think some of you, especially Carrera GT owners, will remember the fatal accident in June of 2005 of a Carrera GT at California Speedway in Fontana. Benjamin M. Keaton, 39, and his passenger, Corey Nicholas Rudl, 34, both of La Jolla, died from injuries after Keaton lost control of a 2005 Porsche Carrera GT. The widow of Rudl filed a lawsuit alleging the wrongful death of her husband, who was a passenger in the CGT owned and driven by Ben Keaton at the Ferrari Owners Club track day! That lawsuit was settled years later for $4.5 million. Of that amount, 8% was provided by Porsche.
I think it behooves all at this forum, but especially current Carrera GT owners, to read an excellent 'legal' article (see link below) that appeared in 2007 in Sport Car Market when the suit was finally settled:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/colum...or-4-5-million
The article includes this passage:
"The sole claim against Porsche was that the CGT was defective because it was designed without electronic stability control, which Porsche calls PSM. McClellan (the lawyer) deposed two German engineers on the subject, and their answers were inconsistent. One testified that Porsche did not think that its PSM system would work on the CGT because the car's frame structure and suspension mountings would create strong vibrations that would interfere with its operation. The other engineer testified that PSM was not offered because the customers didn't want it. McClellan suspects it was a marketing decision, as the CGT was marketed as a 'race car for the streets,' and race cars don't have electronic stability control. He notes that during its development, the CGT had exhibited a tendency to oversteer during high lateral acceleration. Porsche made some adjustments, but did not fully correct the problem, which explained why the mechanic who drove Keaton's car reported 'handling problems.' PSM would have corrected the 'tail happy' oversteer response to Keaton's steering input to avoid the Ferrari."
To be precise, the Carrera GT does have 'Traction Control' (TC) to prevent wheel spinning under acceleration. But it doesn't have 'Electronic Stability Control' (ESC), also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP) or dynamic stability control (DSC). That was also true for the .1 997 gt3 and .1 997 gt3 RS. Porsche decided to include both (ESC & TC), in what they called PSM, for the .2 997 gt3, RS, and 4.0 - perhaps as the result of the issues raised in this legal case and the fact that Porsche was held partially responsible!
We will have to wait and see what the results are of the crash investigation into the accident involving this Carrera GT with Roger and Paul. But I suspect these same legal issues, related to the lack of 'Electronic Stability Control' in this 558-horsepower Carrera GT sports car, will be revisited in this case. But for the moment, let's just mourn the tragic deaths of these two individuals. A very sad day indeed!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
I think some of you, especially Carrera GT owners, will remember the fatal accident in June of 2005 of a Carrera GT at California Speedway in Fontana. Benjamin M. Keaton, 39, and his passenger, Corey Nicholas Rudl, 34, both of La Jolla, died from injuries after Keaton lost control of a 2005 Porsche Carrera GT. The widow of Rudl filed a lawsuit alleging the wrongful death of her husband, who was a passenger in the CGT owned and driven by Ben Keaton at the Ferrari Owners Club track day! That lawsuit was settled years later for $4.5 million. Of that amount, 8% was provided by Porsche.
I think it behooves all at this forum, but especially current Carrera GT owners, to read an excellent 'legal' article (see link below) that appeared in 2007 in Sport Car Market when the suit was finally settled:
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/colum...or-4-5-million
The article includes this passage:
"The sole claim against Porsche was that the CGT was defective because it was designed without electronic stability control, which Porsche calls PSM. McClellan (the lawyer) deposed two German engineers on the subject, and their answers were inconsistent. One testified that Porsche did not think that its PSM system would work on the CGT because the car's frame structure and suspension mountings would create strong vibrations that would interfere with its operation. The other engineer testified that PSM was not offered because the customers didn't want it. McClellan suspects it was a marketing decision, as the CGT was marketed as a 'race car for the streets,' and race cars don't have electronic stability control. He notes that during its development, the CGT had exhibited a tendency to oversteer during high lateral acceleration. Porsche made some adjustments, but did not fully correct the problem, which explained why the mechanic who drove Keaton's car reported 'handling problems.' PSM would have corrected the 'tail happy' oversteer response to Keaton's steering input to avoid the Ferrari."
To be precise, the Carrera GT does have 'Traction Control' (TC) to prevent wheel spinning under acceleration. But it doesn't have 'Electronic Stability Control' (ESC), also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP) or dynamic stability control (DSC). That was also true for the .1 997 gt3 and .1 997 gt3 RS. Porsche decided to include both (ESC & TC), in what they called PSM, for the .2 997 gt3, RS, and 4.0 - perhaps as the result of the issues raised in this legal case and the fact that Porsche was held partially responsible!
We will have to wait and see what the results are of the crash investigation into the accident involving this Carrera GT with Roger and Paul. But I suspect these same legal issues, related to the lack of 'Electronic Stability Control' in this 558-horsepower Carrera GT sports car, will be revisited in this case. But for the moment, let's just mourn the tragic deaths of these two individuals. A very sad day indeed!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
However, I would like to comment on Eduardo´s points..because I think there are some points which cant be left like that:
1. The contribution from Porsche was rather a voluntary.."settlement"
2. In no way a car manufacturer can be held in such tragic cases "as responsible", after all its the driver who "decides".
3. Keep in mind that outside the US, Porsche would have not felt any pressure form any legal system to feel obliged to contribute to this settlement.
4. The argument that SC prevents such accidents ..is..well I better dont say it. If that were true, nobody would have died in a GT2RS, GT3 RS 4.0 etc or Hyndai whatever. There were 2 deadly accidents with a GT2RS already. Im not putting here the link because of respect to the families.
As tragic as all this may seem, lets drive carefully, lets please for sure not try to push the limits of such a car in public roads. Even at a racetrack the limits of these cars would be too high for 99,99% of us - no matter if SC or NOT. SC is a help..but if you go into a corner with 150mph where only 100mph work..SC wont help you anything. Blind belief is the worst enemy in such cases.
A sad day for all of us.
12-01-2013, 07:26 PM
#99
Rennlist Member
What happened to the op with the link on this?
12-01-2013, 07:39 PM
#101
Racer
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Well put Porsche.collector. I recently spun out my CGT on a big, but isolated racetrack (too much throttle all of sudden on a wet road surface rounding a corner) and it happens so fast that I am amazed that there is any driver that can catch it (but there are professionals who can). I am going to try and train more, but will be ever more careful for those situations -- particularly when the road isn't optimal and the tires aren't pretty warm. I had been driving in dry weather for so long, I forgot how much difference there is on a damp, cold wet road. I honestly prefer autobahn and country roads anyhow -- constantly braking and accelerating isn't my favourite thing. But I will say to any CGT owner, until you experience it, you have no idea how quick it can go into a spin. It just takes off and then when you figure out that you can't catch it, you hit the brakes. Trust me -- just hit the brakes when it happens unless you are the Stig and even he commented on how he had real difficulty controlling the immediate power of the engine on the car (spun it out his first three tries around Hammerhead). So now we have much better tires? Yes, the new Suoer Sports make a big difference. Second, set the rear torsional setting to "most understeer" position -- you'll go through a corner slower and get more grip. Third, and a fellow rennlister tried to warn me about this, do everything in that car GRADUALLY. Feed in the power, never jerk it. Funny thing is that when. I spun my car, I was only worried about damaging it. My fellow passenger was more worries about his own safety. Perhaps he was right... The CGT gives you the most amazing driving experience, but it's not for the faint hearted. I'll continue to enjoy it more and more on long touring trips where I just can't get enough of its and let the more experienced here maximise its true potential on the track. Anyhow, sad to see such an accident occur here and the death of these two wonderful individuals -- it just reinforces my preferences here. Cheers, Steve
12-01-2013, 07:44 PM
#102
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By the way, I totally agree we cannot blame the driver or passenger here (particular when we have no idea what happened and they cannot defend themselves) and we have to accept sometimes you just get very bad luck. Second, I would gauge the speed considerably over 45mph (80kmh), but you can't be sure -- they could have been very near the pole when they lost control and spun into it. It's just hard to lose do control of a CGT at 80kmh -- I'd say 110-130kmh more likely. But who knows? My heart really goes out to their families who probably never understand how this could happen. God knows I will be more careful. It's such a shame!!!!!!!
12-01-2013, 07:45 PM
#103
My emotions are now with their families..this is serious tragedy. We lost Sean Edwards, now him and others as well driving the cars we love.
...
2. In no way a car manufacturer can be held in such tragic cases "as responsible", after all its the driver who "decides".
...
As tragic as all this may seem, lets drive carefully, lets please for sure not try to push the limits of such a car in public roads.
Blind belief is the worst enemy in such cases.
...
A sad day for all of us.
...
2. In no way a car manufacturer can be held in such tragic cases "as responsible", after all its the driver who "decides".
...
As tragic as all this may seem, lets drive carefully, lets please for sure not try to push the limits of such a car in public roads.
Blind belief is the worst enemy in such cases.
...
A sad day for all of us.
I'm not even sure that'll be published, though.
12-01-2013, 08:07 PM
#105
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Yeah, the article describes the CGT well and he is a professional race car driver… However, you don't have to drive it at its limits to really enjoy it though (and I am not saying that the crash here was caused by driving it at the limits; it could have unfortunately just been an act of God).