Fast and Furious Paul Walker killed in CGT
12-02-2013, 07:35 PM
#196
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To follow up on wtdoom who is probably one of the most experienced drivers of the CGT: I feel like our little friendly CGT site has just gotten invaded -- its participants used to be make gentlemanly comments about the various different forms of enjoyment that is to be had almost uniquely with this car. Someone well liked, respected and famous then instantly dies in one and we are all taking a pretty big gut check here. But to summarise the CGT in a few ominous sound bits (mostly by those who have never driven it) is pretty disappointing. It drives to absolute perfection until you make a mistake and then it is sadly not very forgiving. Why do think these guys died in one? Well, because obviously they loved the car. Those that drive it all do; it's just the most raw pure driving experience to be had. There is just nothing else like it. Of course, we fear the tragic consequences of driving it to hard -- but are addicted to its incredible handling, it's unbridled speed, it's feeling of control and freedom at the same time. The pure excitement. We that own one can understand its dangers -- in fact, a good fellow rennlister here gave some valuable tips when I was about to first take it on the autobahn. (We're not all some stupid dumb rich idiots; as one rennlister put it: "you just don't fall into a CGT"). I wish I had remembered his advice 2 months later on a racetrack south of Prague. Se leve. But that's part of the deal here with this car.
If you want to see something really super scary surreal extreme, then watch "TT Closer to the Edge" (the worlds most famous motorcycle race) where a death happens almost every year. But watch the whole film to understand why they race it.
The CGT is the best naturally handling car I have ever driven until it's pushed a bit too far and then it is definitely not. These guys that died in this horrific accident drove the car because they undoubtedly loved it (they were the 6th owner) and some combination of events really bad happened. The car is certainly not a death trap, it is beyond incredible in the way it handles. But of course, that tempts you very close to edge of physics. Hitting the car on the side is by far the worst thing -- the two fatal accidents mentioned here on this thread both happened with a side collision. Unfortunately, there is too little barrier to such a collision at a any reasonable spec. If they had hit the tree head on, they would likely still be alive.
Whatever the case, it's really not their fault. **** happens. They were living the life that they undoubtedly had been doing for some time and a really horrible and unlikely series of events occurred (like a plane accident). If people want to hide out under their couches then they have already missed the boat; am I going to be more careful driving my CGT for a while. Well sure... Absolutely (and in have spun out in mine). I am only human. And I wouldn't give that up for anything... In the CGT, I so rarely feel so alive.
RIP. BUT LIVE LIFE.
If you want to see something really super scary surreal extreme, then watch "TT Closer to the Edge" (the worlds most famous motorcycle race) where a death happens almost every year. But watch the whole film to understand why they race it.
The CGT is the best naturally handling car I have ever driven until it's pushed a bit too far and then it is definitely not. These guys that died in this horrific accident drove the car because they undoubtedly loved it (they were the 6th owner) and some combination of events really bad happened. The car is certainly not a death trap, it is beyond incredible in the way it handles. But of course, that tempts you very close to edge of physics. Hitting the car on the side is by far the worst thing -- the two fatal accidents mentioned here on this thread both happened with a side collision. Unfortunately, there is too little barrier to such a collision at a any reasonable spec. If they had hit the tree head on, they would likely still be alive.
Whatever the case, it's really not their fault. **** happens. They were living the life that they undoubtedly had been doing for some time and a really horrible and unlikely series of events occurred (like a plane accident). If people want to hide out under their couches then they have already missed the boat; am I going to be more careful driving my CGT for a while. Well sure... Absolutely (and in have spun out in mine). I am only human. And I wouldn't give that up for anything... In the CGT, I so rarely feel so alive.
RIP. BUT LIVE LIFE.
12-02-2013, 07:58 PM
#197
Röhrl was also successful in road racing events, and called "Genius on Wheels" by Niki Lauda. In the 1992 24 Hours Nürburgring race which saw fog and heavy rain in the night, he hardly slowed down, anticipating the corners by timing. The race was nevertheless interrupted for hours.
In Italy, he was elected "Rallye driver of the century". In France he was elected "Rallye driver of the millennium" in November 2000. A jury out of 100 worldwide motorsports experts elected him "Best Rallye driver ever" in Italy.
In Italy, he was elected "Rallye driver of the century". In France he was elected "Rallye driver of the millennium" in November 2000. A jury out of 100 worldwide motorsports experts elected him "Best Rallye driver ever" in Italy.
I marvel at what the initiated must think when they read about the "dangerous" Carrera GT. Based on the nonsense that is presented online, I'm sure the average reader has visions of driving along at 60 mph when the car suddenly erupts into massive oversteer and leaps off the road of its own accord. It then spontaneously combusts.
12-02-2013, 08:07 PM
#198
Race Car
Everyone goes on and on about the "professional driver" thing.
Like Mario Andretti, Sebastian Vettle etc have never crashed a car?
Fact is , they were hoofin it on city streets.
What'd they think was going to happen?
Like Mario Andretti, Sebastian Vettle etc have never crashed a car?
Fact is , they were hoofin it on city streets.
What'd they think was going to happen?
12-02-2013, 08:08 PM
#199
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W Mitty; mjr24
W. Mitty - "ANY car gets spooky when it is on the very threshold of adhesion. Whether it commences with benign understeer in your average Camry at 35mph or snap oversteer in a supercar like the CGT at 120, the dynamics are quite challenging. The point is, in general street driving an experienced exotic car driver NEVER EVER even comes close to reaching these lofty limits. Therefore, to say the Carrera GT is an especially dangerous car is like saying a .50 cal pistol is an especially dangerous gun. Yes it may be, but not in the hands of someone with skill, judgment and common sense. Without reference to this tragedy, any object, including a car, can be made dangerous by poor judgment. "
Very well expressed. ANYTHING pushed to 9/10 or 10/10 of its native operating parameters will be tricky, but isn't that the reason most people race or (among true driving enthusiasts, not the car as accessory crowd) love the "engaging and characterful" cars? To test our mettle and see if we can tame the wild beast?
This has always been my pet peave about electronic nannies - sure it won't make the average driver a Seb Vettel, but it sure closes the gap, and not because of skill or experience.
The CGT, by accounts (I've never driven one; I regularly drive an 800WHP / 900 lb-ft street car; put 6000 miles on a 997.2 GT3RS in much less than a year, and Romain Grosjean's back up Lotus Renault F1 car, tuned DOWN of course; among a few other interesting cars) - by accounts, the CGT is really really a handful and very unforgiving AT THE EDGE and there doesn't seem to be very much warning when that edge is approaching, but at anything near reasonable operating parameters on public roads (and this includes not only quantitative road speed, but throttle application at any speed - torque and power to weight ratio is the key here, as well as suspension set up for at the limit behaviour) it isn't going to just jump and bite you. The definition of "it is trying to kill you" seriously needs someone who understands to clarify and explain to those that don't.
mjr24 - when a car is moving and the PS goes out, it isn't usually catastrophic, at least in my experience. I've owned a 2003 R53 dinanized and track prepped Mini Cooper S. The power steering went out a few times, a few of those times while moving. Assuming nothing seizes up (as suggested by another post) the situation is actually not that bad, since at speed, steering is considerably lightened compared to trying to turn an unassisted steering wheel at rest or low speeds. And the Mini Cooper S would be the worst scenario for something like this to happen - front engined front wheel drive. rear or mid engine, or rear wheel drive (steering wheel not driven wheel) would probably be even less of an issue.
just my humble personal experience, and none of these comments offered in the context of this CGT situation - I'm done with that.
Very well expressed. ANYTHING pushed to 9/10 or 10/10 of its native operating parameters will be tricky, but isn't that the reason most people race or (among true driving enthusiasts, not the car as accessory crowd) love the "engaging and characterful" cars? To test our mettle and see if we can tame the wild beast?
This has always been my pet peave about electronic nannies - sure it won't make the average driver a Seb Vettel, but it sure closes the gap, and not because of skill or experience.
The CGT, by accounts (I've never driven one; I regularly drive an 800WHP / 900 lb-ft street car; put 6000 miles on a 997.2 GT3RS in much less than a year, and Romain Grosjean's back up Lotus Renault F1 car, tuned DOWN of course; among a few other interesting cars) - by accounts, the CGT is really really a handful and very unforgiving AT THE EDGE and there doesn't seem to be very much warning when that edge is approaching, but at anything near reasonable operating parameters on public roads (and this includes not only quantitative road speed, but throttle application at any speed - torque and power to weight ratio is the key here, as well as suspension set up for at the limit behaviour) it isn't going to just jump and bite you. The definition of "it is trying to kill you" seriously needs someone who understands to clarify and explain to those that don't.
mjr24 - when a car is moving and the PS goes out, it isn't usually catastrophic, at least in my experience. I've owned a 2003 R53 dinanized and track prepped Mini Cooper S. The power steering went out a few times, a few of those times while moving. Assuming nothing seizes up (as suggested by another post) the situation is actually not that bad, since at speed, steering is considerably lightened compared to trying to turn an unassisted steering wheel at rest or low speeds. And the Mini Cooper S would be the worst scenario for something like this to happen - front engined front wheel drive. rear or mid engine, or rear wheel drive (steering wheel not driven wheel) would probably be even less of an issue.
just my humble personal experience, and none of these comments offered in the context of this CGT situation - I'm done with that.
12-02-2013, 08:12 PM
#200
To follow up on wtdoom who is probably one of the most experienced drivers of the CGT: I feel like our little friendly CGT site has just gotten invaded -- its participants used to be make gentlemanly comments about the various different forms of enjoyment that is to be had almost uniquely with this car. Someone well liked, respected and famous then instantly dies in one and we are all taking a pretty big gut check here. But to summarise the CGT in a few ominous sound bits (mostly by those who have never driven it) is pretty disappointing. It drives to absolute perfection until you make a mistake and then it is sadly not very forgiving. Why do think these guys died in one? Well, because obviously they loved the car. Those that drive it all do; it's just the most raw pure driving experience to be had. There is just nothing else like it. Of course, we fear the tragic consequences of driving it to hard -- but are addicted to its incredible handling, it's unbridled speed, it's feeling of control and freedom at the same time. The pure excitement. We that own one can understand its dangers -- in fact, a good fellow rennlister here gave some valuable tips when I was about to first take it on the autobahn. (We're not all some stupid dumb rich idiots; as one rennlister put it: "you just don't fall into a CGT"). I wish I had remembered his advice 2 months later on a racetrack south of Prague. Se leve. But that's part of the deal here with this car. If you want to see something really super scary surreal extreme, then watch "TT Closer to the Edge" (the worlds most famous motorcycle race) where a death happens almost every year. But watch the whole film to understand why they race it. The CGT is the best naturally handling car I have ever driven until it's pushed a bit too far and then it is definitely not. These guys that died in this horrific accident drove the car because they undoubtedly loved it (they were the 6th owner) and some combination of events really bad happened. The car is certainly not a death trap, it is beyond incredible in the way it handles. But of course, that tempts you very close to edge of physics. Hitting the car on the side is by far the worst thing -- the two fatal accidents mentioned here on this thread both happened with a side collision. Unfortunately, there is too little barrier to such a collision at a any reasonable spec. If they had hit the tree head on, they would likely still be alive. Whatever the case, it's really not their fault. **** happens. They were living the life that they undoubtedly had been doing for some time and a really horrible and unlikely series of events occurred (like a plane accident). If people want to hide out under their couches then they have already missed the boat; am I going to be more careful driving my CGT for a while. Well sure... Absolutely (and in have spun out in mine). I am only human. And I wouldn't give that up for anything... In the CGT, I so rarely feel so alive. RIP. BUT LIVE LIFE.
12-02-2013, 08:22 PM
#201
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Drove our bassalt black 05 CGT today. Unless you are trying to prove something on normal streets and driving like a complete jackass i don't see how you can get in that much trouble. You can drive this car at 8/10s all day long and have a smile from ear to ear for the rest of the week. I feel the only solution to a lot of these crashes is for owners to drive their cars more often. Don't let them become garage queens. Learn the weaknesses and the strengths. Become comfortable with the dynamics, they didn't design this car to be driven a couple hundred miles a year.
Also I wouldn't rule out some mechanical failure...again back to low mile cars maybe with the original tires from 05 and no maintenance/inspections done.
Regardless sad situation for the two gentlemen and the car.
Also I wouldn't rule out some mechanical failure...again back to low mile cars maybe with the original tires from 05 and no maintenance/inspections done.
Regardless sad situation for the two gentlemen and the car.
12-02-2013, 08:28 PM
#202
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Sorry forgot to mention and this coming from someone who's father crashed his first 05 seal gray carrera GT (minor slide off the road around a tight 45mph turn visually minor cosmetic damage but totalled due to parts costs) after putting 7900 miles on it in a year.
He pushed it too hard, was an inexperienced driver and fortunately no one was injured. Now he tones it down and still enjoys the replacement car just as much.
He pushed it too hard, was an inexperienced driver and fortunately no one was injured. Now he tones it down and still enjoys the replacement car just as much.
12-02-2013, 09:00 PM
#204
Sadly reminded of Sean Edwards' recent track instruction death in Australia (with a GT3), as he was also in the passenger seat. Both guys with a lot of talent in different fields, both gone too young. Picked the car for a Carrera GT from the centerlocks along with the line of the front wheel-well on what was left of the car. Truly a supercar - I well remember seeing and hearing one at a dealer one day - but apparently not easily driven near the limit. Yes, I read an interview once with Rohrl (a top Porsche works test driver and former world rally champ) who effectively described it as the 'most demanding' car he'd ever pushed hard around the Nurburgring.
Some police sourced reports tell of a power steering fluid leak immediately before the crash, though the GT's rack and pinion should still leave some (heavy) control. Pentosin is super flammable so it's pretty much the last thing you'd want spraying around in a crash. They were apparently troubleshooting a stalling issue too so that may also have contributed to a loss of control near an uphill bend.
Trees are unforgiving if hit at any reasonable speed, and no respecters of driver talent.
My thoughts go to Paul's family and friends, as well as those of Roger Rodas - his friend who was driving at the time and passed away next to him. I wasn't aware of their charity work before but the world needs more people who have time for others.
Some police sourced reports tell of a power steering fluid leak immediately before the crash, though the GT's rack and pinion should still leave some (heavy) control. Pentosin is super flammable so it's pretty much the last thing you'd want spraying around in a crash. They were apparently troubleshooting a stalling issue too so that may also have contributed to a loss of control near an uphill bend.
Trees are unforgiving if hit at any reasonable speed, and no respecters of driver talent.
My thoughts go to Paul's family and friends, as well as those of Roger Rodas - his friend who was driving at the time and passed away next to him. I wasn't aware of their charity work before but the world needs more people who have time for others.
12-02-2013, 09:14 PM
#205
Just read that the stalling issue was just one of Roger's employees having trouble backing it up. The service tech driving the CGT I saw at Continentals that day also stalled it at least once, so I'm picking that was probably just normal and due to the light flywheel making it hard for someone inexperienced to drive it slowly away from a stop.
12-02-2013, 10:08 PM
#206
Burning Brakes
I don't know if anyone noticed or mentioned but I noticed the old speed limit indicated 35mph speed limit - on some news imaging of the accident scene I noticed the sign said 45mph - at some point speed limit was increased. I know - it doesn't mean much......
12-02-2013, 10:35 PM
#208
How is this fireball possible from a car? Geez, looks like a plane crash.
Video:
http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_oehej0ek/
Video:
http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_oehej0ek/
12-02-2013, 10:55 PM
#209
Tank is in the middle of the car...right where it appears to have hit. In most collisions, this tank would have been safely tucked away from damage. Such a shame...RIP.
Last edited by Adker; 02-20-2014 at 08:25 PM.
