Para82

Neg - he had to lift off every time so he wouldn't get flagged, he mentioned this is when his wife took advantage and passed him in her Ferrari Challenge car.

Para82

Max -

Low 1.30's for the GT350R http://www.mustang6g.com/?p=7410

The regular Boss 302 pulled a 1.40 lap time at Laguna Seca. The Laguna Seca version (essentially the R version) with R compounds, no backseats and suspension/cooling upgrades pulled a 1.39 (beating the Audi R8, Aston Martin DBS and M3 back in 2012).


Boss lap times - http://www.motortrend.com/news/2012-...boss-302-test/

MaxLTV

Looks like the same driver did 1:37s in Boss 302 the next day, but without having to lift (350R did lift in the same places I had to). It's a very fast time for 302, so it's not like the driver is slow. I'm not sure why the same driver in same conditions would be so much faster in 302. Maybe 302 was on more aggressive tires, but I did not check. Could be that the 350R needed set up or more seat time or could be tires/setup/mods on the 302 giving advantage.

I would not be surprised if 350R runs low 1:3xs (meaning under 1:35s, not under 1:30.5) with no lifting, pro driver and/or set of hoosiers, but 1:40 on a perfect day with a good driver is about 2-3s slower than an advanced amateur in a GT3 on OEM MPSC2 tires in same conditions. It's just one data point, so I was probably too quick to imply it's generalizeable.

Para82

I don't think it was the production Boss - he owns a Boss 302R and a Boss302S (basically cup casr that you could buy direct form Ford Racing - no vin track only). Same engine as the production Boss 302 with heavily revised suspension, full cage, and slicks etc. http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/y...Boss302S12.jpg

MaxLTV

I do not doubt that. But ...
"As its hot shoe, Ford brought 2010 Rolex 24hrs Daytona GT class winner Jonathan Bomarito" - pro driver times are not comparable to what once-a-month track day crowd can do (as much as I'd love to say otherwise).

Do not get me wrong, I'm not putting down the car in any way, and I'd actually consider one if I did not have a GT3.

Para82

Very true, it's like the Nurburgring - the best time recorded for the GT350R was a 7.32 - I'd be lucky to pull under 10 minutes in real life

Edit: (have never driven the Ring but wouldn't bet on much).

stuntman

You can't compare any times at LS on a sound restricted track day. Way too many variables.

Trust me, I don't blame you since it is hard to believe a Mustang costing almost 1/3 of the price would be even close to the GT3, let alone turning laps right in line with one. I'm a fan of the GT3 and it still blows my mind the GT350R is as fast, but it has been back to back on multiple tracks.

The RWS has had that delay and on data, that one place it looses time to the GT350R. The 350R's FR layout, more power, more downforce and...better balance makes up for its larger size, weight, and manual trans. I still think a fairly competent average track day guy could drive a 350R faster than a GT3, while a pro would be pretty close in each, with the GT3 just edging it out on most occasions.

MaxLTV

Sound restriction lift is worth about a second. Also, should be similar penalty for both cars - both lift at 5 entry and floor it at 6 exit. So I do not buy it. Also, the car was slower at other parts of the track.

Anyway, I'm not making any definitive statements - it's just one datapoint. We'll have many more soon.

As for RWS causing delay, it makes no sense to me. Why would anyone do it then? Why Ferrari is adding it to its cars (e.g., F12tdf for now)? On cars without electric RWS, rear wheels steer as well, it's just happening mechanically - front wheels initiate the turn, the car starts to lean, the lean causes rear wheels to steer in the direction of the turn (more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steeri...wheel_steering ) The time it takes for the weight transfer and lean to happen is the rear-axle response lag, kind of a rubber band between front and rear axles, which makes a car less stable until it fully "settles".

Electric RWS turns rear wheels synchronously with front wheels, not needing to weight for weight transfer. So it's faster, not slower. It does not make the car faster automatically - it just allows to eliminate some pauses between inputs and in general makes handling a little bit more predictable.

As for a cheaper car being faster - it's not a shocker. I've been passed by an E46 more than once. Gut interior, add hoosiers, shocks and some makeshift aero, and E46 would run 1:37s, and it's still a sub $30K car (e.g. ). So believing is not an issue. I'm just posting about what happened on a specific day, but even without me posting you can see videos of 350R not breaking 1:40s when other cars did so on the same track same day. There can be many reasons why. I'll talk to the driver next time to know more. I am interested in 350, especially if I end up taking GT3 to Canada because I cannot find one here.

stuntman

Different drivers, different experience levels, different lifts, you really can't compare times with these variables. You need the same driver in each car (pro or regular Joe) for a realistic comparison.

1:40 is a horrible time for a 350R. The Boss 302 LS street car turned those times and the 350R is MILES faster.

As far as RWS, its probably Porsches tuning to calm down the rear engine characteristics of the car. What's the crossover point where the rear tires turn the same direction as the fronts to the opposite? It's possible the delay I am experiencing is the change from the same to opposite direction as the speeds cross this threshold when entering hairpins.

Manifold

I'd go further and say that you need a driver who can get within 2-3 secs of a pro in each of the cars being tested in order to mostly take the driver out of the equation and meaningfully compare the lap times of the cars. Lesser drivers cause the driver to be too much of a variable in the comparison.

Also, if a car is observed to be slower than expected on track despite being driven by a 'fast' driver, that could just mean the driver was taking it easy for some reason.

stuntman

^I agree. I guess there's 2 main considerations:

-Which car is outright faster (pro in both cars = objective)

-Which car can be driven faster by the majority of amateurs? (Subjective and a ton of variables).

I still hold that most amateurs can probably turn a faster lap in the GT350R than they could in the GT3.

Manifold

I haven't driven the GT350/R, but my general experience has been that, if the setup is good, front-engine RWD cars are generally easier to drive on track than rear-engine RWD cars. But I'm used the rear-engine layout and really enjoy it - feels 'right' to me.

Para82

Honestly who cares if the GT350R can turn a faster lap? It comes with a Flat Plane Crank V8, 8250RPM motor mated to a 6 speed manual, incredible suspension, superb wheel and tire setup and stunning looks. The GT3 is great, but you're not going to find this in any Porsche.

I was recently looking at the specs of other high end vehicles over 100k like the Aston Martin Vantage etc....made me laugh.

fbirch

I'd love to see a back-to-back track comparison of a 350R and a 991 GT3 - same pro driver in both cars, same tires on both cars, same track, same day, same conditions - hosted by an independent party. The comparison should include overall lap times, segment times, and a thorough description of relative handling characteristics near the limit by the pro driver. Any true car nerd would love it.

Para82

Now that would be a good comparison I think many of us would like to see.. It would sure beat having us argue lap times and downforce potential on the forums.