GT4 RS
#61
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Unfortunately we won't see that tranny in this hypothetical unicorn. The trannys in the 991 and 981 run opposite; i.e. one acts like RWD and the other acts like FWD. Then there was the rumor, previously posted on RL, that the 981 PDK couldn't handle the torque of the 3.8. Something which modifiers like BGB won't really have to concern themselves with but PAG does for warranty/longevity/reliability purposes.
$0.02
$0.02
1.) PDK has been bolted to 3.8L 997.2 engines, 3.8L 997.2 X51 engines, 3.8L 991 engines and 3.8L 991 x51 Power Kit engines and has been sourced from 987.2 3.4L PDK cars, 981 2.7L PDK cars and 981 3.4L cars. That's 4 different motors across 3 types of PDK boxes with varying torque levels with ZERO issues since 2012. Now for some speculation: we have more time testing this config on the race track and on the street than anyone else in the world with the exception of maybe the factory.
2.) Despite your belief that we don't care and would just assume modify your car and send you down the road to fight out warranty concerns with your dealerships, of the 20 + conversions we have done, whenever there has been any sort of issue or problem, every single time I have reached into my pocket and fixed the problem by paying to bring the car back or paying the expense at the dealership. Why would we do anything that would come back to bite us? This might be your speculation but it goes against historical, factual behavior. I can gladly give you names and contacts if you want to confirm how I've spent hours on the phone with dealerships so they're not concerned about the swap when the person comes in for other work or campaign updates.
Sorry for the OT rant but I've spent thousands of dollars over the years to be a sponsor here because it's the best source of Porsche specific information but potential customers read these threads; I don't agree with someone's opinion that we're just here to collect money and don't care about the longevity of our work. Being a forum sponsor we are protected against folks who look to attack our work with this type of speculation so please keep that in mind.
While everyone is quick to point out the warranty exposure from a 3.8L swap, the reality is that the motors & gearboxes come with a 2 year manufacturers warranty; a dealership will address the drivetrain warranty the same way he would if you installed a set of air filters, a throttle body upgrade, a set of headers, an ECU flash or short ratio gears. Whether you have a different motor, or any of those parts, they're not going to give you free warranty work for a Check Engine Light's being on and if they decide to do so, it will be at their discretion.
Last edited by BGB Motorsports; 07-26-2015 at 11:58 AM.
#62
You must have a serious axe to grind with us given how you draft your comments and what you have said about us and our products and/or services. A few facts for you ExMB:
1.) PDK has been bolted to 3.8L 997.2 engines, 997.2 X51 engines, 3.8L 991 engines and 3.8L 991 x51 Power Kit engines and has been sourced from 987.2 3.4L PDK cars, 981 2.7L PDK cars and 981 3.4L cars with ZERO issues.
2.) we have more time testing this config on the race track and on the street than anyone else in the world with the exception of maybe the factory.
3.) despite your intuition that we don't care and would just assume let you fight it out over warranty concerns, of the near 20 conversions we have done, whenever there has been any sort of issue or problem, every single time I have reached into my pocket and fixed the problem by paying to bring the car back or paying the expense at the dealership. Why would we do anything that would come back to bite us?
Sorry folks...I keep hearing the whole warranty thing and I'm not going to fight you guys on it but the reality is that our motors come with a 2 year manufacturers warranty and so do the gearboxes while a set of air filters, a throttle body upgrade, an ECU flash or short ratio gears (all stuff you guys want) affects the warranty in the same exact way.
EXMB - Given that I am a forum sponsor I'm protected against folks who look to attack our work so please keep that in mind. I don't know why I should expect anything different from someone who hung up on me after I sought you out to sell you something at a ridiculous discount.
1.) PDK has been bolted to 3.8L 997.2 engines, 997.2 X51 engines, 3.8L 991 engines and 3.8L 991 x51 Power Kit engines and has been sourced from 987.2 3.4L PDK cars, 981 2.7L PDK cars and 981 3.4L cars with ZERO issues.
2.) we have more time testing this config on the race track and on the street than anyone else in the world with the exception of maybe the factory.
3.) despite your intuition that we don't care and would just assume let you fight it out over warranty concerns, of the near 20 conversions we have done, whenever there has been any sort of issue or problem, every single time I have reached into my pocket and fixed the problem by paying to bring the car back or paying the expense at the dealership. Why would we do anything that would come back to bite us?
Sorry folks...I keep hearing the whole warranty thing and I'm not going to fight you guys on it but the reality is that our motors come with a 2 year manufacturers warranty and so do the gearboxes while a set of air filters, a throttle body upgrade, an ECU flash or short ratio gears (all stuff you guys want) affects the warranty in the same exact way.
EXMB - Given that I am a forum sponsor I'm protected against folks who look to attack our work so please keep that in mind. I don't know why I should expect anything different from someone who hung up on me after I sought you out to sell you something at a ridiculous discount.
2) You are correct in the sense that bolt on stuff has an effect on the warranty.
3) Lets be fair about your half cage. Yes you sought me out with your prototype half cage which by you own admittance, as understood by me, fit very tight against structural pieces thereby placing/creating additional stresses and needed to be completely repainted. From my post in the GT4 forum you must have been aware of the vehicle I was looking for and that you also couldn't guarantee fitment as 100%: post link. When I mentioned the German price I could get one for new, and you never mentioned pricing I am unable to comment on the ridiculous discount you stated above, you left me with the impression that you were getting very upset, tone off your voice, etc and thats when I decided that all was said and I terminated the call.
4) You have a place in the modification world with satisfied customers and some people will therefore seek you out. But your reply post with your comment about protection, IMHO, probably could have been worded better.
#63
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
1) I don't have an axe to grind with you but lets look at it. Porsche warrants their engine and tranny for 4 years. You list the engine as 2 yrs but don't specify anything on the tranny.
2) You are correct in the sense that bolt on stuff has an effect on the warranty.
3) Lets be fair about your half cage. Yes you sought me out with your prototype half cage which by you own admittance, as understood by me, fit very tight against structural pieces thereby placing/creating additional stresses and needed to be completely repainted. From my post in the GT4 forum you must have been aware of the vehicle I was looking for and that you also couldn't guarantee fitment as 100%: post link. When I mentioned the German price I could get one for new, and you never mentioned pricing I am unable to comment on the ridiculous discount you stated above, you left me with the impression that you were getting very upset, tone off your voice, etc and thats when I decided that all was said and I terminated the call.
4) You have a place in the modification world with satisfied customers and some people will therefore seek you out. But your reply post with your comment about protection, IMHO, probably could have been worded better.
2) You are correct in the sense that bolt on stuff has an effect on the warranty.
3) Lets be fair about your half cage. Yes you sought me out with your prototype half cage which by you own admittance, as understood by me, fit very tight against structural pieces thereby placing/creating additional stresses and needed to be completely repainted. From my post in the GT4 forum you must have been aware of the vehicle I was looking for and that you also couldn't guarantee fitment as 100%: post link. When I mentioned the German price I could get one for new, and you never mentioned pricing I am unable to comment on the ridiculous discount you stated above, you left me with the impression that you were getting very upset, tone off your voice, etc and thats when I decided that all was said and I terminated the call.
4) You have a place in the modification world with satisfied customers and some people will therefore seek you out. But your reply post with your comment about protection, IMHO, probably could have been worded better.
#64
Nordschleife Master
Unfortunately we won't see that tranny in this hypothetical unicorn. The trannys in the 991 and 981 run opposite; i.e. one acts like RWD and the other acts like FWD. Then there was the rumor, previously posted on RL, that the 981 PDK couldn't handle the torque of the 3.8. Something which modifiers like BGB won't really have to concern themselves with but PAG does for warranty/longevity/reliability purposes.
$0.02
$0.02
But the more important thing is one really needs to be careful about rumours posted on the internet. Internally a 981 and a 991 PDK are identical with respect to mechanicals, gear width, etc. the ONLY difference is with respect to which direction the cut the pinion drive gears to spin. That's it. I could take the gear stack out of a 991 and move it over to the Cayman box and have Carrera gearing in a car. These gearboxes are super over built from the factory. I wouldn't shy away from putting 600whp through any PDK. That kind of power won't break it.
To make a PDK-S for a Cayman would be a very simple engineering project. Only a few parts would have to be changed. Will they do it? No idea. But can they? Yes, quite easily by using the same parts and design sharing in manufacturing that they use on the existing PDK gearboxes.
#65
I guess you could say the Cayman gearbox "runs like a FWD" but not really. It runs like a midengine transaxle.
But the more important thing is one really needs to be careful about rumours posted on the internet. Internally a 981 and a 991 PDK are identical with respect to mechanicals, gear width, etc. the ONLY difference is with respect to which direction the cut the pinion drive gears to spin. That's it. I could take the gear stack out of a 991 and move it over to the Cayman box and have Carrera gearing in a car. These gearboxes are super over built from the factory. I wouldn't shy away from putting 600whp through any PDK. That kind of power won't break it.
To make a PDK-S for a Cayman would be a very simple engineering project. Only a few parts would have to be changed. Will they do it? No idea. But can they? Yes, quite easily by using the same parts and design sharing in manufacturing that they use on the existing PDK gearboxes.
But the more important thing is one really needs to be careful about rumours posted on the internet. Internally a 981 and a 991 PDK are identical with respect to mechanicals, gear width, etc. the ONLY difference is with respect to which direction the cut the pinion drive gears to spin. That's it. I could take the gear stack out of a 991 and move it over to the Cayman box and have Carrera gearing in a car. These gearboxes are super over built from the factory. I wouldn't shy away from putting 600whp through any PDK. That kind of power won't break it.
To make a PDK-S for a Cayman would be a very simple engineering project. Only a few parts would have to be changed. Will they do it? No idea. But can they? Yes, quite easily by using the same parts and design sharing in manufacturing that they use on the existing PDK gearboxes.
the reason I said rumor is based on this ZF link which lists the torque numbers but nobody really confirmed if those PN trannys are used in Porsche's.
#66
Nordschleife Master
Thanx,
the reason I said rumor is based on this ZF link which lists the torque numbers but nobody really confirmed if those PN trannys are used in Porsche's.
the reason I said rumor is based on this ZF link which lists the torque numbers but nobody really confirmed if those PN trannys are used in Porsche's.
Oems always rate their stuff for less than it can really take. If they didn't we wouldn't have all these 800whp 996tts running around.
#67
Even if those were the same as the Porsche gearboxes isn't a 991 making 390nm at 5600 for peak power? Means that the weakest gearbox on the list can handle it according to their ratings. But we need to keep in kind the Porsche gearboxes are proprietary. I wouldn't make any assumptions about whether those are the same or different.
Oems always rate their stuff for less than it can really take. If they didn't we wouldn't have all these 800whp 996tts running around.
Oems always rate their stuff for less than it can really take. If they didn't we wouldn't have all these 800whp 996tts running around.
#68
Nordschleife Master
Nope, IAW with PAG tech data its 440 Nm for the 3.8. And yes, a good manufacturer applies a safety figure in order to cover themselves; its good design practice.
#69
#70
Nordschleife Master
Sorry, your red doesn't show as a hotlink on my phone. I see it now. Regardless, there's no issue with the power levels in my eyes, especially if they gave the car the PDK-S like guts are hoping.
#71
Why put a PDK in the GT4RS? They already have the GT3. If you want a PDK - WOW, the GT3 is quite a car to behold, you will be giddy-happy with it combined with 9K RPM. I suppose they might do it because they can - but AP has been harping on the idea of a drivers car, so would be odd to take a step backward. Either way, I don't really care as long as it has a manual as an option.
I'd expect the GT4RS to have cup level aero (like the GT3RS vs. Cup) and an engine more like what the GT4 race car will have - who knows, maybe dry sump, maybe new crank and connecting rods, maybe better cooling..etc - like the GT3RS has over the GT3, which was seemingly needed for the GT3 Cup. Once the GT4 race car is officially announced, the RS will be basically the same minus the sequential gearbox...if it has one.
I'd expect the GT4RS to have cup level aero (like the GT3RS vs. Cup) and an engine more like what the GT4 race car will have - who knows, maybe dry sump, maybe new crank and connecting rods, maybe better cooling..etc - like the GT3RS has over the GT3, which was seemingly needed for the GT3 Cup. Once the GT4 race car is officially announced, the RS will be basically the same minus the sequential gearbox...if it has one.
#73
Burning Brakes
I can't believe what I am reading here. BGB and Guard Transmission have been two of the most forthright and unwavering supporters of the RL brethren. John and Matt: you guys really don't need to defend yourselves here. Seriously...
#74
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 17,107
Likes: 0
Received 259 Likes
on
173 Posts
I dont think we will see a cayman RS.... just as much as chance of seeing a Macan RS IMO.
I think the GT4RS is confused with the GT4cup that is coming.
As much as the GT4 Cup might be a fluff racer, it is on my radar 110%
I think the GT4RS is confused with the GT4cup that is coming.
As much as the GT4 Cup might be a fluff racer, it is on my radar 110%
#75
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
i dont know much about gearboxes, but john T + matt M, the gearbox will be right
"GT4cup will disappiont you"...
i am so happy to hear that.
my bank is empty and i have margin calls and yearning for air cooled.... i dont need a GT4 cup.
"GT4cup will disappiont you"...
i am so happy to hear that.
my bank is empty and i have margin calls and yearning for air cooled.... i dont need a GT4 cup.