Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
05-08-2019, 07:38 PM
#6181
05-08-2019, 09:46 PM
#6182
Rennlist Member
05-09-2019, 11:04 PM
#6183
Three Wheelin'
Please unpack that for me, a 2015 owner. However what?
@chsu74 I never got the first $5k. I filed for the fix after the fix was approved. They said after the fix was approved, no partial payments. So I am at risk for the full $10k.
I think the tone of Porsche relative to the fix is very high handed. We signed our rights away when we registered for the fix, and the best time to riot is before we have surrendered our weapons, not after. It pissed me off when they denied the $5k.
Part of me says take the money and trade for a Macan Turbo.
Part of me says F/U. Don't fix it and drive on hassle free.
I have pissed away $10k on less worthy projects than keeping my CD the way I like it. Part of my resistance is that my dealer, Gossett in Memphis, is great but 150 miles away. The multiple trips to the dealer are multiple days for me. Multiple days at the dealership will amortize my $10,000 in a hurry. Who needs the hassle?
05-10-2019, 09:21 AM
#6184
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by sclemmons
Part of me says take the money and trade for a Macan Turbo.
Part of me says F/U. Don't fix it and drive on hassle free.
I have pissed away $10k on less worthy projects than keeping my CD the way I like it. Part of my resistance is that my dealer, Gossett in Memphis, is great but 150 miles away. The multiple trips to the dealer are multiple days for me. Multiple days at the dealership will amortize my $10,000 in a hurry. Who needs the hassle?
Part of me says F/U. Don't fix it and drive on hassle free.
I have pissed away $10k on less worthy projects than keeping my CD the way I like it. Part of my resistance is that my dealer, Gossett in Memphis, is great but 150 miles away. The multiple trips to the dealer are multiple days for me. Multiple days at the dealership will amortize my $10,000 in a hurry. Who needs the hassle?
05-10-2019, 10:06 AM
#6185
Rennlist Member
We had one issue with our fixed CD, dealer replaced the EGT's and the cat's. As far as I can tell, the truck drives fine. I always put it in sport mode before and I still do now. My wife DD's it and she has no complaints.
05-13-2019, 04:46 AM
#6186
Rennlist Member
Have both a '14 and a '15. The '14 did OK with the fix. As expected and as they said.
The '15, however, has the dead throttle on roll-on acceleration. Slow for a red light that changes green before you stop, for example, and hit the accelerator and start counting. Or if you've slowed and need to make a quick lane change to pass; you better have hit the accelerator well before you need to move. Apex a corner? Nah... the technique for this is brake into the corner, then immediately hit the gas so you'll have power at the apex. If you wait until the apex, you'll get your power (and grip) well after you exit the corner. And of course in all cases, once the power catches up, it hits hard - surges.
And it lugs. It always drops to the highest gear it can, so at 35, I'll be in 6th gear at 1050 RPMs with the whole vehicle buzzing because of the lugging. Or 40 at 1100 in 7th. Anytime it can get that RPM to 1100, it will and you can feel it in the steering wheel, seat and floor. I think the lugging is why they had to extend the warranty... it's going to kill this engine, eventually! And the surge/transmission slamming together with the engine or whatever the hell is happening.
The '15, however, has the dead throttle on roll-on acceleration. Slow for a red light that changes green before you stop, for example, and hit the accelerator and start counting. Or if you've slowed and need to make a quick lane change to pass; you better have hit the accelerator well before you need to move. Apex a corner? Nah... the technique for this is brake into the corner, then immediately hit the gas so you'll have power at the apex. If you wait until the apex, you'll get your power (and grip) well after you exit the corner. And of course in all cases, once the power catches up, it hits hard - surges.
And it lugs. It always drops to the highest gear it can, so at 35, I'll be in 6th gear at 1050 RPMs with the whole vehicle buzzing because of the lugging. Or 40 at 1100 in 7th. Anytime it can get that RPM to 1100, it will and you can feel it in the steering wheel, seat and floor. I think the lugging is why they had to extend the warranty... it's going to kill this engine, eventually! And the surge/transmission slamming together with the engine or whatever the hell is happening.
05-13-2019, 08:57 AM
#6187
Rennlist Member
Have both a '14 and a '15. The '14 did OK with the fix. As expected and as they said.
The '15, however, has the dead throttle on roll-on acceleration. Slow for a red light that changes green before you stop, for example, and hit the accelerator and start counting. Or if you've slowed and need to make a quick lane change to pass; you better have hit the accelerator well before you need to move. Apex a corner? Nah... the technique for this is brake into the corner, then immediately hit the gas so you'll have power at the apex. If you wait until the apex, you'll get your power (and grip) well after you exit the corner. And of course in all cases, once the power catches up, it hits hard - surges.
And it lugs. It always drops to the highest gear it can, so at 35, I'll be in 6th gear at 1050 RPMs with the whole vehicle buzzing because of the lugging. Or 40 at 1100 in 7th. Anytime it can get that RPM to 1100, it will and you can feel it in the steering wheel, seat and floor. I think the lugging is why they had to extend the warranty... it's going to kill this engine, eventually! And the surge/transmission slamming together with the engine or whatever the hell is happening.
The '15, however, has the dead throttle on roll-on acceleration. Slow for a red light that changes green before you stop, for example, and hit the accelerator and start counting. Or if you've slowed and need to make a quick lane change to pass; you better have hit the accelerator well before you need to move. Apex a corner? Nah... the technique for this is brake into the corner, then immediately hit the gas so you'll have power at the apex. If you wait until the apex, you'll get your power (and grip) well after you exit the corner. And of course in all cases, once the power catches up, it hits hard - surges.
And it lugs. It always drops to the highest gear it can, so at 35, I'll be in 6th gear at 1050 RPMs with the whole vehicle buzzing because of the lugging. Or 40 at 1100 in 7th. Anytime it can get that RPM to 1100, it will and you can feel it in the steering wheel, seat and floor. I think the lugging is why they had to extend the warranty... it's going to kill this engine, eventually! And the surge/transmission slamming together with the engine or whatever the hell is happening.
For those still contemplating the fix, wait as long as you can, then roll the dice.
05-13-2019, 10:22 AM
#6188
Has anybody taken a Malone tune after the fix on a 15+? You can PM me if you don't want to post publicly. As the warm weather fills in more and more.... this is really getting annoying. It seems like it's essentially "torque converter lockup + sub-1800 rpm". If I can get the boost and fueling back at low RPM....
05-13-2019, 10:41 AM
#6189
Three Wheelin'
I do have to add in here, that our unfixed 2015 has always had throttle lag with roll on acceleration. I complained on here about it when we first got it, but I can't find the thread. Our 13 didn't do it at all. In lieu of speedbumps, we have several unneccesary stop signs in the neighborhood and the car never shifts down to 1st when stopping, only 2nd, and sometimes 3rd.
05-13-2019, 10:50 AM
#6190
Rennlist Member
I have a few thoughts and questions on the lag/safety problem we all have since the fix. I am making an assumption that the main problem is in the transmission not finding the right gear, right?
1. First of all I have to confess I know nearly nothing about ECU tuning on cars but from what I do understand the folks with diesel trucks can tune the engine and transmission at will from a module in the truck and they have almost an unlimited amount of tuning options. Is that not possible for us? If they can find someone to write programs for those vehicles not to mention our turbo cars , the rice rocket cars and anything else that has a ECU why not approach someone to help us out en-masse ?
2. Also would it be possible to source a ECU for the engine and I assume for the tranny from somewhere in world where our Washington bureaucratic overlords don't have a say and install it on our cars?
3. Since some of the 13's have timed out and hit the mileage limit is anyone out here looking at modifications for horsepower that would overcome the issues we have.
Rick
1. First of all I have to confess I know nearly nothing about ECU tuning on cars but from what I do understand the folks with diesel trucks can tune the engine and transmission at will from a module in the truck and they have almost an unlimited amount of tuning options. Is that not possible for us? If they can find someone to write programs for those vehicles not to mention our turbo cars , the rice rocket cars and anything else that has a ECU why not approach someone to help us out en-masse ?
2. Also would it be possible to source a ECU for the engine and I assume for the tranny from somewhere in world where our Washington bureaucratic overlords don't have a say and install it on our cars?
3. Since some of the 13's have timed out and hit the mileage limit is anyone out here looking at modifications for horsepower that would overcome the issues we have.
Rick
05-14-2019, 10:51 AM
#6191
I'm not sure that we can say that is the main issue. It seems like it's part of the issue but, likely not all of it. Most of what people are describing is zero response to rolling into the throttle after braking/coasting to a near stop or from a stop. We feed in more and more throttle until the electronics finally wake up and respond resulting in way more throttle and downshifting than intended.
The mechanism that actually causes this unknown and will likely stay unknown unless we start logging data to see which parameters seem to drive the condidtion. It possibly could be hunting for a gear and the trans ECU is in some state that does not allow the engine ECU to respond as it should but, given that it seems to be temperature related it seems more likely that it's the engine ECU not responding properly. It could be something like IAT or EGT climbing to a point that the ECU goes into a partial limp mode but, I would think this would store some type of code even if it is a shadow code that doesn't throw a CEL which I have not seen. Or it could be crappy emissions driven tuning that has a large hole in the map in some specific range that makes response abysmal until it pops put of that load range. I'm sure there are a lot of other possibilities as well.
1. First of all I have to confess I know nearly nothing about ECU tuning on cars but from what I do understand the folks with diesel trucks can tune the engine and transmission at will from a module in the truck and they have almost an unlimited amount of tuning options. Is that not possible for us? If they can find someone to write programs for those vehicles not to mention our turbo cars , the rice rocket cars and anything else that has a ECU why not approach someone to help us out en-masse ?
2. Also would it be possible to source a ECU for the engine and I assume for the tranny from somewhere in world where our Washington bureaucratic overlords don't have a say and install it on our cars?
3. Since some of the 13's have timed out and hit the mileage limit is anyone out here looking at modifications for horsepower that would overcome the issues we have.
Rick
2. Also would it be possible to source a ECU for the engine and I assume for the tranny from somewhere in world where our Washington bureaucratic overlords don't have a say and install it on our cars?
3. Since some of the 13's have timed out and hit the mileage limit is anyone out here looking at modifications for horsepower that would overcome the issues we have.
Rick
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...ne-diesel.html
2. You will run into complications with that. ECUs are locked to vehicle VIN and they talk to one another throughout the vehicle. Tuning would be a more straightforward option and obviously the capabilities are there since Malone can manage it.
3. It seems likely the Malone tune (or any others that become available) would address the drivability issues and give a decent bump in power too.
05-14-2019, 11:56 AM
#6192
Rennlist Member
Thanks Hotrod for sharing your thoughts, I'm going to reach out to OpenFlash and see how many customers it would take to make it a viable investment for them. It may be way more than it would be possible to generate from Rennlists Cayenne Diesel community but there has to be a number that can be quantified to make a product profitable and I'm curious as to what that number is.
There are 3 Cayenne diesels in our family so there's a start !
There are 3 Cayenne diesels in our family so there's a start !
05-14-2019, 01:36 PM
#6193
I have a few thoughts and questions on the lag/safety problem we all have since the fix. I am making an assumption that the main problem is in the transmission not finding the right gear, right?
1. First of all I have to confess I know nearly nothing about ECU tuning on cars but from what I do understand the folks with diesel trucks can tune the engine and transmission at will from a module in the truck and they have almost an unlimited amount of tuning options. Is that not possible for us? If they can find someone to write programs for those vehicles not to mention our turbo cars , the rice rocket cars and anything else that has a ECU why not approach someone to help us out en-masse ?
2. Also would it be possible to source a ECU for the engine and I assume for the tranny from somewhere in world where our Washington bureaucratic overlords don't have a say and install it on our cars?
3. Since some of the 13's have timed out and hit the mileage limit is anyone out here looking at modifications for horsepower that would overcome the issues we have.
Rick
1. First of all I have to confess I know nearly nothing about ECU tuning on cars but from what I do understand the folks with diesel trucks can tune the engine and transmission at will from a module in the truck and they have almost an unlimited amount of tuning options. Is that not possible for us? If they can find someone to write programs for those vehicles not to mention our turbo cars , the rice rocket cars and anything else that has a ECU why not approach someone to help us out en-masse ?
2. Also would it be possible to source a ECU for the engine and I assume for the tranny from somewhere in world where our Washington bureaucratic overlords don't have a say and install it on our cars?
3. Since some of the 13's have timed out and hit the mileage limit is anyone out here looking at modifications for horsepower that would overcome the issues we have.
Rick
Here's a recent case that was just settled against SCT - $6.25M fine. https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa...defeat-devices
Often times, just stating "for off highway use only" isn't enough.
Sourcing a non-US module is certainly *possible* - tho I can tell you that, on our vehicles, at least MOST of the modules are "married" to one another. Simply pulling a ECU out of one vehicle and installing it in another isn't that simple - the boxes may not recognize each other and as such won't "talk" without first being "married" via PIWIS (which is the official Porsche service tool).
I'll preface with this is just my personal thought process as to what may be going on and is no way a statement of fact...
I'm not sure that we can say that is the main issue. It seems like it's part of the issue but, likely not all of it. Most of what people are describing is zero response to rolling into the throttle after braking/coasting to a near stop or from a stop. We feed in more and more throttle until the electronics finally wake up and respond resulting in way more throttle and downshifting than intended.
The mechanism that actually causes this unknown and will likely stay unknown unless we start logging data to see which parameters seem to drive the condidtion. It possibly could be hunting for a gear and the trans ECU is in some state that does not allow the engine ECU to respond as it should but, given that it seems to be temperature related it seems more likely that it's the engine ECU not responding properly. It could be something like IAT or EGT climbing to a point that the ECU goes into a partial limp mode but, I would think this would store some type of code even if it is a shadow code that doesn't throw a CEL which I have not seen. Or it could be crappy emissions driven tuning that has a large hole in the map in some specific range that makes response abysmal until it pops put of that load range. I'm sure there are a lot of other possibilities as well.
1. Their market is much bigger than ours so, they attract more support. I tried to get Openflash to support the CD but, there was no backing from the community on it. They need to know there is a market for it to work on it. I've worked with them on my Evo and 335i and they are the real deal.
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...ne-diesel.html
2. You will run into complications with that. ECUs are locked to vehicle VIN and they talk to one another throughout the vehicle. Tuning would be a more straightforward option and obviously the capabilities are there since Malone can manage it.
3. It seems likely the Malone tune (or any others that become available) would address the drivability issues and give a decent bump in power too.
I'm not sure that we can say that is the main issue. It seems like it's part of the issue but, likely not all of it. Most of what people are describing is zero response to rolling into the throttle after braking/coasting to a near stop or from a stop. We feed in more and more throttle until the electronics finally wake up and respond resulting in way more throttle and downshifting than intended.
The mechanism that actually causes this unknown and will likely stay unknown unless we start logging data to see which parameters seem to drive the condidtion. It possibly could be hunting for a gear and the trans ECU is in some state that does not allow the engine ECU to respond as it should but, given that it seems to be temperature related it seems more likely that it's the engine ECU not responding properly. It could be something like IAT or EGT climbing to a point that the ECU goes into a partial limp mode but, I would think this would store some type of code even if it is a shadow code that doesn't throw a CEL which I have not seen. Or it could be crappy emissions driven tuning that has a large hole in the map in some specific range that makes response abysmal until it pops put of that load range. I'm sure there are a lot of other possibilities as well.
1. Their market is much bigger than ours so, they attract more support. I tried to get Openflash to support the CD but, there was no backing from the community on it. They need to know there is a market for it to work on it. I've worked with them on my Evo and 335i and they are the real deal.
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...ne-diesel.html
2. You will run into complications with that. ECUs are locked to vehicle VIN and they talk to one another throughout the vehicle. Tuning would be a more straightforward option and obviously the capabilities are there since Malone can manage it.
3. It seems likely the Malone tune (or any others that become available) would address the drivability issues and give a decent bump in power too.
Probably what's going on with this "new, fixed" tune is a sort of chicken/egg scenario. They can only do so much fueling (and fueling timing advance) before they start to pollute beyond EPA limits, so that limits how much help the turbo gets to spool. Once the boost comes up, you can add fuel... and get performance.
Thanks Hotrod for sharing your thoughts, I'm going to reach out to OpenFlash and see how many customers it would take to make it a viable investment for them. It may be way more than it would be possible to generate from Rennlists Cayenne Diesel community but there has to be a number that can be quantified to make a product profitable and I'm curious as to what that number is.
There are 3 Cayenne diesels in our family so there's a start !
There are 3 Cayenne diesels in our family so there's a start !
Still... it can't hurt.
05-14-2019, 02:52 PM
#6194
Rennlist Member
Have both a '14 and a '15. The '14 did OK with the fix. As expected and as they said.
The '15, however, has the dead throttle on roll-on acceleration. Slow for a red light that changes green before you stop, for example, and hit the accelerator and start counting. Or if you've slowed and need to make a quick lane change to pass; you better have hit the accelerator well before you need to move. Apex a corner? Nah... the technique for this is brake into the corner, then immediately hit the gas so you'll have power at the apex. If you wait until the apex, you'll get your power (and grip) well after you exit the corner. And of course in all cases, once the power catches up, it hits hard - surges.
And it lugs. It always drops to the highest gear it can, so at 35, I'll be in 6th gear at 1050 RPMs with the whole vehicle buzzing because of the lugging. Or 40 at 1100 in 7th. Anytime it can get that RPM to 1100, it will and you can feel it in the steering wheel, seat and floor. I think the lugging is why they had to extend the warranty... it's going to kill this engine, eventually! And the surge/transmission slamming together with the engine or whatever the hell is happening.
The '15, however, has the dead throttle on roll-on acceleration. Slow for a red light that changes green before you stop, for example, and hit the accelerator and start counting. Or if you've slowed and need to make a quick lane change to pass; you better have hit the accelerator well before you need to move. Apex a corner? Nah... the technique for this is brake into the corner, then immediately hit the gas so you'll have power at the apex. If you wait until the apex, you'll get your power (and grip) well after you exit the corner. And of course in all cases, once the power catches up, it hits hard - surges.
And it lugs. It always drops to the highest gear it can, so at 35, I'll be in 6th gear at 1050 RPMs with the whole vehicle buzzing because of the lugging. Or 40 at 1100 in 7th. Anytime it can get that RPM to 1100, it will and you can feel it in the steering wheel, seat and floor. I think the lugging is why they had to extend the warranty... it's going to kill this engine, eventually! And the surge/transmission slamming together with the engine or whatever the hell is happening.
05-14-2019, 03:04 PM
#6195
Rennlist Member
Great explanations Hacked 987 on why we will ultimately be unable to improve the lag, you would think that a government agency would have tested the end product and concluded that the risk to owners lives out weighed the small risk to the environment.
I don't know about the rest of the community of owners but there are times that I have been caught off guard when I needed to not occupy a space before another vehicle is about to occupy it causing a near miss. We plan for plenty of lead time now knowing about the lag but there are times when circumstances don't allow for that.
I don't know about the rest of the community of owners but there are times that I have been caught off guard when I needed to not occupy a space before another vehicle is about to occupy it causing a near miss. We plan for plenty of lead time now knowing about the lag but there are times when circumstances don't allow for that.