gnat

The EPA will send them a strongly worded letter and waggle their finger menacingly...



I have no idea, given the scale this is all new ground.

Given how little impact the news of the EU "fix" has had outside of the automotive world I expect that this is quickly falling from the concern of the public eye. I think that supports my earlier contention (here or in RLOT's thread, or both, I don't recall) that this will drag out and ultimately not amount to much and certainly nothing like the original claims.

visitador

Got this link from another forum:https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...-and-carb-5191

Easy fix?

gnat

Sucks for those with cars sitting at the port. No happy holidays in sight in that regard

PJ Cayenne

As great as the CDs are, I'd run away from any deal where I've not taken delivery. Makes no sense to tie your money up in this car at this time.

mdrobc1213

Yeah dealer is offering us any other model of the Cayenne and/or Macan at a discount and/or priority.
Tell me about it..Car is tied up at port with Stop Sale due to VW's Diesel fiasco. No delivery date can/will be given from Porsche and last update to dealership from Porsche and to us was given the scale and amount of governmental agencies and approval authorities alone in US and overseas VW is dealing with....release of my car for sale could take some time and last well into 2016 as the fix and recall must be approved by so many levels to include also California's CARB folks input. The folks who started all this mess. So my CA says this may even last into the 2017 model year production if the delays continue and the EPA and agencies push hard for the fix and then want to do extensive testing again on all diesel models...so the hold/stop sale could continue for quite a while OR could end tomorrow (unlikely) since it was voluntary and not mandated by the EPA....at least not at this time.

visitador

VW is the ones who started this mess. Tired of people blaming CARB. Right now my CD is spilling nine times the allowed amount of NOX. This is not something I signed up when I bought it.

gnat

And I'm tired of people getting their panties twisted over things they (willfully?) don't understand.

The only reason the Urea cars are involved is because of how egregiously VW thumbed their noses at the EPAs of the world with the non-Urea cars.

Unless your real world conditions and abilities allow you to drive exactly like is done in the testing, ANY internal combustion based vehicle is putting out 5-15x the allowed amount. We have known this for a long time. So it's not news that your Cayenne is acting like every other gas/diesel car out there.

So yes, yes you did sign up for that "extra" emissions when you bought it. That you decided not to understand various aspects of what you were purchasing does not negate that the general information was readily available (a bit less so now as its buried behind the "news" of this fiasco).

If you have been reading about and understanding the issue you should understand that the issue with the Urea cars is that there are some additional components that were not properly documented. Not that these devices are doing anything adverse, VW just screwed up on the documentation. All they are doing is getting them properly certified and adding a software tweak so the EPA can crow about how they cleaned up these "dirty" diesels

VW did a bad thing with their non-Urea scam and they are going to be paying the price for awhile.

It would be nice to see the EPA pay a price for their Emissions Control scam since the ever tightening laws just make our cars less fun, more complicated/expensive, and don't amount to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of pollution.

If the car offends you so much, sell it and move on. Apparently in some areas diesels are actually selling for a premium at the moment too...

mdrobc1213

I think his point is that he purchased a vehicle with a said stated set of performance characteristics and also emissions profile and now is finding out that it isn't fully true and that the original party likely knew about it at some point (2.0 and 1.6L models especially) and somewhere in the depts of VW engineering it was ignored. Yes most folks do want to understand the products they purchase but a vast majority likely fail to full details of their diesel purchases I am sure. Maybe a few as you do but probably that is the exception not the rule and most of the details are left to the sales and service folks to explain to the respective buyers. So I don't think folks are getting "their panties twisted" about something that is just a minor thing as they as a buyer purchased A and are now being told well A wasn't what you thought it was...it was B. In some cases this is resulting in a negative valuation of their vehicles. VW sales have dropped 25% in Nov and there is a documented drop in the residual values of their diesels in the market. Again most folks don't take kindly to a defect or flaw causing their residual values to drop of an item they purchased needlessly of no fault of their own. Yes cars depreciate but when they do so cause the manufacturer erred in some form then you do have to say they do have a reason to be pissed. a bit.


As for your explanation that its just a documentation error on VW's part..while that may somewhat explain the situation...the mere fact that now the same software has been found by on the 3.0L cars negates whatever advantage they may have had by being a less pollutant or offensive system to the regs. Likely EPA and the rest of the regulators (CARB and others worldwide too) will now take a deeper look at all of VW diesels and I would bet be under the gun to test them till the cows come home to ensure they are truly compliant before ANY certification is granted. This is exactly what happened if you look at the timeline...1st 1.6L are noted, then 2.0L VW's quickly after and then notice that the EPA will be looking deeper into all models and viola further testing reveals the 3.0L also. So having been duped by VW; I doubt that the various agencies will just allow a quick shuffle of papers and let VW sales of these cars be on their way. That is what my dealer is conveying to me in that at this point the relative scale of the scandal has made a quick paperwork fix almost impossible or at the least very hard. Don't expect that to just go away in 30 days and given the production calendar for 2016 is fast approaching and factory re-tooling dates and such later in 2016; if approval is prolonged it may mean no VW's diesels released for sale for the 1st half of 2016. In the end VW will likely have to jump through hoops and convince the approval authorities as they've now lost any credibility they previously had from any standpoint (engineering, quality, etc).

So yes it's VW's fault but you can't blame owners for getting mad or having an issue with cars that will either need to be modified on recall to a possible lower standard than previously expected at time of purchase, have or may or will lose value due to perceived "differences" between them and regular cars, and/or who planned and ordered cars they cannot get anymore who are sitting at port or at the factory but cannot be sold. So buyers sit and wait as I do for my '16 Cayenne Diesel that's locked up somewhere in a west coast warehouse I am told without any release date or idea of when/how it will be cleared in the near term. That is just lovely...isn't it? Hmm wonder how those Land Rover Sport Diesels drive again....

mdrobc1213

No need to run...nobody can get their car...ordered or not. They're locked up tight and production and shipping of any models has been halted by VW. Mine is on the dock in CA and another friend of mine's didn't even make the boat and was held at port in Essen w/out shipment. No dates given for when it will load for the US by Porsche. Nothing word whatsoever.

PJ Cayenne

The biggest issue is the lack of liquidity of these cars. What a complete disaster for owners, dealers and banks. This has to affect PCNA's relationship with it's financing partners.

Next issue is the change in performance that any "software tweak" will have on the CD. Anyone think we'll get more power and better fuel economy from the fix?

Anyone think buybacks may happen?

Dbltime

The voluntary sales stop for models with the V6 TDI diesel engine, which the three affected Group brands had provisionally decided upon, has been extended until further notice

Voluntary? These cars do not meet US emissions standards so they cannot be sold in this country. Nothing voluntary about it. Our Cayenne Diesels are worthless at this point. Can't sell them, trade them just drive and enjoy.

gnat

But it is the EPA's fault that the testing is a sham, not VW's. It's also the buyer's fault for buying the vehicle with emissions as a high value in the decision when they didn't bother to understand what those values mean or what the realities of car emissions are.

You can't claim to be concerned about something and then not even do basic research on the topic. OK, most people do, but they look like idiots and just make noise that makes things more difficult for those of us that actually do care about the given topic.

I think you vastly overestimate the average person. If people cared and did research we'd still have stuff that lasted for lifetimes measured in decades and not years (at best).

But that's just the thing. They were told how the vehicle performs in relation to the EPA testing process. It still performs exactly like that. Nothing has changed. Nothing. They still meet the guidelines as outlined by law.

Sales and marketing always use misleading and deceptive practices to sell their stuff. In this case it's that they don't put giant bold letters on the car that says "does not meet EPA standards in the real world". It's your job as the consumer to look past the marketing and sales tactics to find out the real information on the items that are important to you.

Which on the Urea cars is entirely due to people panicking over what they don't understand. They are told to freak out over something and do so without bothering to fully understand the facts of the issue.

That statement is glossing over that they have chosen to stop selling their most popular configurations which accounted for most of their sales. Some of the hit is definitely due to the bad press, but if they were still selling the diesels I suspect that hit would only be in the 5-10% range.

Depends on the market. In mine (outside DC) there was an initial drop, but they seem to have stabilized quickly and even ticked back up to almost the pre-fiasco values. I've heard reports of values actually being above pre-fiasco values in areas of Colorado and New Mexico (or was it Nevada?).

The problem, however, is that any hit to the value so far is purely due to people freaking out with zero actionable information.

Once an actual fix is out and we have hard information about the impacts to performance and economy, then there will be real information to base reactions on.

What???

Just because software is there (which is not the least bit shocking since it's the same ECU manufacturer and the ECUs would share the same base programming) doesn't mean it is actually doing anything. Specifically there are no accusations of the software doing anything it shouldn't be.

The only current issue with the Urea is the documentation issue and that just happens to highlight the real vs test numbers as a byproduct.

You might want to go back and review the full timeline, because you are way off as nothing happened quickly. This has been going on for a couple of years and you are confusing what each side knew (both content and timing) with what was released to the public.

Well at least we can agree on a couple of things.

This is why the Urea based cars will get a software patch as well as having their documentation fixed. It isn't needed under the current law, it will negatively impact the owners, and the change will have no appreciable impact on the environment, but the EPA and CARB have to be placated so they can say they won.

I most certainly can and will as long as they do so based on incorrect and misleading information and by their actions make the whole problem worse.

Right now 100% of any lost value is directly attributable to people getting upset and speculating about the future. It has nothing to do with any real damages at this point in time.

I'm sorry you're stuck waiting on yours, I really am. It's a great vehicle, but in your position I'd have gotten my deposit back moved onto another car/brand as soon as they announced the stop sale since it's obvious this is going to drag on.

The only ones that can't liquidate them are the VAG dealers. Everyone else is still free to buy and sell all day long and in some areas the value hasn't been impacted at all.

Of course not, but I also don't think the power difference will be noticeable without the use of a Dyno. I'm also not convinced there will be a significant MPG hit either as I think they are just going to increase the AdBlue usage under certain circumstances.

Absolutely not. Just won't happen. There may be a few rare exceptions for some high profile owners or ones that have been buying new Porsches like candy, but not for the normal owners.

Yes it's voluntary and yes they absolutely do meet the US emissions standards based on the current law. The government has not ordered VAG to stop selling any diesels.

In all likelihood if VAG reversed that decision and started selling them again the government would step in, there would be a bunch of legal wrangling, and finally the non-Urea cars would get a legal sale block. That would likely still only impact new car sales though.

Funny, mine is still worth about the same mid-50s that it was this summer as that is what it would cost to replace it with another similar 2013 w/25k.

You can absolutely sell it if you want or trade it in. In fact I just got a "we want to buy your 2013 Cayenne Diesel" post cards from both my selling and servicing dealers. I don't get it since the voluntary stop sale includes used sales as well, but I called one and they confirmed that they would indeed take a CD in as trade.

PJ Cayenne

The buyback thought came from another luxury dealer in Manhattan with a used 911 on his lot that I was looking at. He asked if I was a "Porsche Guy" and I told him I own a CD. He volunteered that his contacts at VW told him a buyback was a possibility. Sounds like just a rumor to me, and that's likely as far as it will go.

I wonder if these cars would be sellable in other countries?

visitador

Gnat, it seems to me that you are generalizing about how we end up purchasing our CDs. I don't know what kind of research you did before you purchased your CD. I can tell you mine.

I am not an extremely rich person that pops Porsches like candy. In 2013, I was in the market to replace a 2004 Grand Cherokee. Had a 2005 Boxster since new and enjoyed it. Originally, I was just thinking of whether to buy a Grand Cherokee V6 or the V8. Diesel didn't come into my mind. Only after going into the Jeep forums that I learned Jeep was planning to offer a diesel engine.

I did not think much about diesels at that time. However, I knew the V6 Grand Cherokee did not have enough torque while the V8 was quite thirsty. So, I started reading the virtues of diesel. So, what is not to like? It seems to be the perfect engine for this kind of cars. Lots of low end torque and much better mileage of the V8.

I kept waiting for Jeep to release the diesel engine. I did read they were having issues finalizing the urea system and that they also had issues getting approval from CARB. So, while waiting, I happened to go to the Porsche dealership to service my Boxster. It was then, that I saw a CD for the first time. The CD was not originally in my sight since it was about a $20K premium over what I was willing to spend on a Grand Cherokee diesel. Still, I liked it a lot and decided that it may be worth if I traded in my Boxster, which I wasn't driving that much.

Now, you seem to imply that I should do more research then? That I should have dwelt into the various methods that the EPA do that testing and conclude that the standards are not feasible in the real world? I doubt that most potential buyers are as diligent as you. Most of us, while have some basic knowledge about the testing procedures, know that the numbers shown on the stickers are approximates. But I bet most of us do not think that real world numbers DEVIATE hugely from the claimed numbers.

I use those numbers to compare one product versus another. I concluded that the CD was better than the diesel Grand Cherokee. The Grand Cherokee had a little better torque but the fuel mileage numbers were lower.

In all honesty, I don't know why you are so annoyed at prior post. I am NOT an expert on EPA or CARB tests procedures BUT I believe that even if they are not realistic, they provide a way to compare one product versus another. Now those numbers are skewed and I feel cheated by VW.

Wisconsin Joe

Absolutely. The EPA rules for US passenger car diesels are stricter than just about everywhere else.

And gnat correctly mentioned that the 3.0 cars would not see any power or MPG effects. To make it clear to those not familiar with them, DEF (AdBlue, Urea, whatever you want to call it) is injected into the exhaust. After the combustion. You may see an increase in DEF consumption, but it won't affect how the engine runs.