gnat

And that's the real problem at this point I think.

I think VAG has lost access to the "trust, but verify" path and both the current configuration as well as any proposed fix needs to be throughly vetted. I don't think, however, that we can trust CARB/EPA to do that objectively and accurately though.

RickDC

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-vo...-idUSKCN11N0US

stronbl

A few months ago I posted information about this case in Australia and where VAG says we have no cheat device - I'm too lazy to look back and find it - but I doubt VAG will ever acknowledge the software as anything like a cheat device as it would make their future litigation of cases outside the US much more problematic. I know we are speaking semantics here as we know what the device does, but other countries do not have the same emission language and legal ramifications as in the US (for now).

On a related but different topic I saw over the weekend reports of the rush to file legal documents in Germany as the 1 year anniversary is approaching. A couple cases were investor / fiduciary cases where the investors and banks claim the losses to value of the shares was due to deceitful or illegal business practices not merely market forces. I recall those cases totaled damages in the $2B+ range.

Searcher356

I wonder, if EPA put one of the CDs on their test cycle - would it pass?

I have heard and seen a lot of finger-pointing, but I haven't seen any mention of actual EPA tests.

To my knowledge, VW (& PCNA & Audi) certified in-house and submitted the required paperwork. The legal option still seems to surround improper filing of certification, not failing e-tests.

Maybe I'm just too involved i looking for facts instead of allegations....

skiahh

I think that's the point, isn't it? They all passed on the test dyno... it's real world where they were emitting more.

How many people on this forum have taken their CDs in for annual tests and passed just fine. Pretty much all of them, I'd say.

Not sure what your point is here. The cheat device is to detect the test, turn everything on full so as to pass the test. Then turn some, or all, off again to... preserve mpg and performance?

WhipE350

They may have cheated but it hurts so good. Even with the AC on.

Searcher356

My point is - if they passed the certification, then they passed the certification.

If VAG, and most (all?) other manufacturers emit more in real world tests, then EPA should write regs that address THAT issue, if EPA/CARB thinks it's important. (And give a few years' lead time to engineer and develop.)

What "cheat device?" Is it just VW's workaround for meeting e-standards?

Ford's workarounds have been abysmal for decades. In fact, there was a separate certification process for mechanics and test equipment, just for Ford because of their "strategies."

How about Cummins excessive use of EGR so they could claim "no DEF," and the related EGR valve early failures, emissions exceedance and engine wear?

You can bet that every Legal Counsel in the Free World is advising manufacturers to keep their mouths shut, having seen what a slip of the tongue by VW has cost them.

And all this without an improvement in emission standards or Clean air. EPA/CARB has egg on their face, and they have an admitted Fall Guy - they are deflecting their shortcomings in the face of Public Outcry.

We, the car owners, are impacted while the bureaucrats pile on, avoiding their job of writing effective regs.

Am I giving VW a pass for their strategy? In some ways, yes, because I have been associated with certification, EPA and test cycles over the decades.
In some way I would like to see the Industry file a suit against EPA, requesting that they write the regulations that they seem to be claiming have been violated - but of course that would just invite retaliation by the Regulators and the end of internal combustion engines.
It sure would add to the time it takes for us to see the end of the tunnel.

ddeliber

The point I believe you are missing here is that VW cheated in a way that deliberately detected the test and only in those situations operated within regulations. This is explicitly forbidden in the regs. I absolutely will never give VW a pass on this, there is no question of what they did (at least on the 2.0L Diesels). Do you believe their credibility should be in question on the 3.0L s? I sure do.

Does the EPA and CARB suck? Absolutely. IMO VW sucks much more in this case.

To me, I am not sure how much Audi and Porsche suck - regarding emissions - at least for the moment.

mdrobc1213

Yes have to agree here...just cause they passed certification doesn't mean they are clear cause the cheat clearly was put in place to have them perform in a very limited and controlled manner unlike what would occur in real world. To use an analogy, if you went to a college and looked at a star HS draft pick and he threw 19/20 passes completed and for 10 touchdowns you may be so impressed you may say offer the kid a full 4 yr sports scholarship...then you get him into the game and find out he goes 1/20 and his arm isn't what you think it is and he can barely complete a pass and his timing is off. You go ask what's up and find out the HS coach had 4 NFL training squad receivers catching for your young new QB and had him on a banned performance enhancing drug which explains his outstanding performance (i.e. the hired pros changed his performance just enough that he was certified as good to go and some one you should recruit). Now you have something which was not so much what you thought or that performed as you thought or within the regs. That my friend is what VW did to its customer base in the US market to a degree.

skiahh

I think you've got it backwards, mdrobc - we have the star draft pick and it works as advertised... and still does, so we still have what we thought (unless you bought the CD just to be eco friendly, then you don't have what you bought, I suppose); a car that performs well and gets great mileage. Nothing has changed yet, other than we know it wasn't achieved legitimately.

Now, maybe the banned substance analogy is right, because when they take the substance away, we'l get, say, 10/20; maybe 15/20. Either way, we paid for 20/20, so when they take the substance away, it'll still perform within regs, but at a lower capacity than what we paid for. And that, of course, is a big problem.

Who knows? Maybe they'll be able to find a legal substance that keeps the thing at 19 or 20 of 20. I'm not holding by breath, though.

f4 plt

Probably time to say it again. although I believe it has been posted some time ago

GM admitted that they knew of the faulty ignition switches that caused some people to be injured or worse. just fix them No big deal
Takata ( sp) admitted they knew of the faulty air bags that caused injury and I believe some deaths again no big deal just fix them

VW admitted they cheated on emission testing, no one has been injured nor has anyone died BIG DEAL hang them high

visitador

More simpler, high school student knew ahead the SAT/ACT questions.

gnat

This is what shows CARB/EPA to be the corrupt and petulant groups that they are.

VAG did wrong and needs to pay for it, but what is being asked is so far out of the realm of sanity that it's obscene. It's why if I'm forced to pick a side, VAG is where I lean.

Searcher356

That's my take, too. I don't group the rank and file EPA-ers with the top Policy-setters, though.
There have been several obligatory heads rolling at VAG - I think there should be similar action in the EPA. The Public should be outraged at them, too.

pdxjim

I do not like the fruits and nuts at CARB dictating to someone that does not live in that state what should be done with my vehicle.