The Bad News piles up about the new Turbo
12-12-2009, 05:03 AM
#136
OK,
So we have established that you have:
A. never driven a 99x Turbo.
B. never driven a GT2
C. never driven a GT3
D. never driven a Cup car.
E. never owned a dry sump equipped car
F. never owned a 99x Turbo
G. have no personal experience with any of the items being discussed (dry sump/M64, PDK, etc)
H. have concluded based on your reading that owners of any previous generation Turbo are simply ignoring the "obvious" truth.
OK, I figured it out....
.....ט פּראַקטיק
So we have established that you have:
A. never driven a 99x Turbo.
B. never driven a GT2
C. never driven a GT3
D. never driven a Cup car.
E. never owned a dry sump equipped car
F. never owned a 99x Turbo
G. have no personal experience with any of the items being discussed (dry sump/M64, PDK, etc)
H. have concluded based on your reading that owners of any previous generation Turbo are simply ignoring the "obvious" truth.
OK, I figured it out....
.....ט פּראַקטיק
Wow. So if understand your logic (or illogic) correctly you are implying that one cannot comment about a car unless one has driven it?
As a corollary would it be fair to assume that this would preclude you, yourself, from drawing any conclusions about the new TT?
12-12-2009, 05:18 AM
#137
Rennlist Member
Unlike you "we are nottttt drawwwwwing concluuuusions about the newwww carrrr!!! we are dismissssssing your ascccccertions that the oooooold car is infeeeeriorrrr to the new oneeee. Any claaaaims made about the newww car beingggg superiorrrr in regaaaaards to perforrrmance & reliabiiiility due to the newww motorrr are justtttt claaaaaims tillllll tiiiiiime provesssss otherwissssse!" Incremental improvements in performance were always a given. Get it yet?
Last edited by 911rox; 12-12-2009 at 07:34 AM.
12-12-2009, 06:16 AM
#138
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Well, over the last 26 years, I've been lucky enough to own or drive most 911 variants (currently 2.7RS and GT3), and I would say that you can safely assume that each new 911 model is usefully improved over the out-going model - and so far as I know, this has applied equally to the Turbos.
Now, I've never been a great fan of the Turbos, but I have met some of the people who work on the GT3 projects and back in 2008 Andreas Preuninger suggested that developments for the new Turbo, due in '09 for '10 would significantly improve the car's dynamics. So, I have followed progress with a special interest.
All the initial reviews were full of praise, then the first tests confirmed the progress. I saw the static car, and there was little change but some nice touches and a few clues. Then I read the more indepth reports and spoke to a couple of people who had driven it. They were oozing superlatives. Then, very recently, I drove it.
Yes, it has clearly moved the Turbo forward in all the key areas. The engine sounds better, and is perfectly matched to the clever new gearbox, best of all the chassis feels more tactile and communicative, especially through the steering, with turn-in far more like a GT3's. The brakes are awesome and the ride is the near perfect blend of compliance and feedback. Many of the familiar 911 design cues and characteristics are still there, so it still feels like an old friend.
For the first time, this is a Turbo I would want.
Now, I've never been a great fan of the Turbos, but I have met some of the people who work on the GT3 projects and back in 2008 Andreas Preuninger suggested that developments for the new Turbo, due in '09 for '10 would significantly improve the car's dynamics. So, I have followed progress with a special interest.
All the initial reviews were full of praise, then the first tests confirmed the progress. I saw the static car, and there was little change but some nice touches and a few clues. Then I read the more indepth reports and spoke to a couple of people who had driven it. They were oozing superlatives. Then, very recently, I drove it.
Yes, it has clearly moved the Turbo forward in all the key areas. The engine sounds better, and is perfectly matched to the clever new gearbox, best of all the chassis feels more tactile and communicative, especially through the steering, with turn-in far more like a GT3's. The brakes are awesome and the ride is the near perfect blend of compliance and feedback. Many of the familiar 911 design cues and characteristics are still there, so it still feels like an old friend.
For the first time, this is a Turbo I would want.
12-12-2009, 07:45 AM
#139
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Well, over the last 26 years, I've been lucky enough to own or drive most 911 variants (currently 2.7RS and GT3), and I would say that you can safely assume that each new 911 model is usefully improved over the out-going model - and so far as I know, this has applied equally to the Turbos.
Now, I've never been a great fan of the Turbos, but I have met some of the people who work on the GT3 projects and back in 2008 Andreas Preuninger suggested that developments for the new Turbo, due in '09 for '10 would significantly improve the car's dynamics. So, I have followed progress with a special interest.
All the initial reviews were full of praise, then the first tests confirmed the progress. I saw the static car, and there was little change but some nice touches and a few clues. Then I read the more indepth reports and spoke to a couple of people who had driven it. They were oozing superlatives. Then, very recently, I drove it.
Yes, it has clearly moved the Turbo forward in all the key areas. The engine sounds better, and is perfectly matched to the clever new gearbox, best of all the chassis feels more tactile and communicative, especially through the steering, with turn-in far more like a GT3's. The brakes are awesome and the ride is the near perfect blend of compliance and feedback. Many of the familiar 911 design cues and characteristics are still there, so it still feels like an old friend.
For the first time, this is a Turbo I would want.
Now, I've never been a great fan of the Turbos, but I have met some of the people who work on the GT3 projects and back in 2008 Andreas Preuninger suggested that developments for the new Turbo, due in '09 for '10 would significantly improve the car's dynamics. So, I have followed progress with a special interest.
All the initial reviews were full of praise, then the first tests confirmed the progress. I saw the static car, and there was little change but some nice touches and a few clues. Then I read the more indepth reports and spoke to a couple of people who had driven it. They were oozing superlatives. Then, very recently, I drove it.
Yes, it has clearly moved the Turbo forward in all the key areas. The engine sounds better, and is perfectly matched to the clever new gearbox, best of all the chassis feels more tactile and communicative, especially through the steering, with turn-in far more like a GT3's. The brakes are awesome and the ride is the near perfect blend of compliance and feedback. Many of the familiar 911 design cues and characteristics are still there, so it still feels like an old friend.
For the first time, this is a Turbo I would want.
12-12-2009, 10:02 AM
#140
Rennlist Member
I'll add to the criticism of the older turbo (and I drive an '09): Walter Rorhl does not like the way the programming alters thrust between front wheels and rear wheels in aggressive high-G turns, causing the car to change instantly between oversteer and understeer, making handling unpredictable. The newer turbo thrust programming was modified to suit his requests. The newer turbo also has a different spring/sway setup, similar to what we all have done to modify our turbos (Bilstein B16, etc).
My point is: of what use is a high-G capable dry sump when you can't attack turns at the limits of adhesion?
Also, I agree with OldGuy, in that just because something is cheaper to produce does not make it technologically inferior. An example I made in another post is the analogy of the semiconductor industry, where faster/cheaper/better is a byproduct of Moore's law. As a former aerospace and mechanical engineer, I appreciate how difficult it is to simultaneously optimize several mutually exclusive design goals (light weight, strength, power, stealth, etc). From the perspective of an engineer, I love the balance of performance goals featured in all Porsches, old and new, and THAT is what hooked me while driving a Porsche for the first time (my friend's early model Boxster, back in 2003).
Though I once was at the pinnacle of nerdiness (straight A engineering student) I must say, at the risk of sounding like Ben Choi, regarding this nerdy computer fighting...
..."this **** is GHEY".
My point is: of what use is a high-G capable dry sump when you can't attack turns at the limits of adhesion?
Also, I agree with OldGuy, in that just because something is cheaper to produce does not make it technologically inferior. An example I made in another post is the analogy of the semiconductor industry, where faster/cheaper/better is a byproduct of Moore's law. As a former aerospace and mechanical engineer, I appreciate how difficult it is to simultaneously optimize several mutually exclusive design goals (light weight, strength, power, stealth, etc). From the perspective of an engineer, I love the balance of performance goals featured in all Porsches, old and new, and THAT is what hooked me while driving a Porsche for the first time (my friend's early model Boxster, back in 2003).
Though I once was at the pinnacle of nerdiness (straight A engineering student) I must say, at the risk of sounding like Ben Choi, regarding this nerdy computer fighting...
..."this **** is GHEY".
12-12-2009, 11:21 AM
#141
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By your "logic", if you read enough books, you can fly a plane.
If you read enough books, you can become a race car driver.
I drove the new Turbo (before they offered the proper 'paddles' for the PDK). Of course this was a couple of years or so before the car was made publci. I didn't like it. I didn't care for the styling either FWIW.
12-13-2009, 01:08 AM
#142
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wow, just jumped over here to the turbo forum since i'm selling my 997S and thinking about biting on a fire sale turbo.
i didn't realize boolala had drifted over here.
remember, never wrestle with a pig, you both get muddy but the pig likes it.
i didn't realize boolala had drifted over here.
remember, never wrestle with a pig, you both get muddy but the pig likes it.
12-13-2009, 01:17 AM
#143
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FWIW, he was also in the Cayenne for a while...ironically the Cayenne forum is also known as the P!g Pen...
12-13-2009, 02:37 AM
#144
12-13-2009, 03:01 AM
#146
BTW, ltc, still waiting on an answer about whether it is still your position that PAG got it wrong when they introduced the PDK.
And if you were dead wrong about PDK, I would hazard to guess you are dead wrong about the 9A1 motor.
12-13-2009, 09:32 AM
#147
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https://rennlist.com/forums/6441762-post15.html
BTW, ltc, still waiting on an answer about whether it is still your position that PAG got it wrong when they introduced the PDK.
And if you were dead wrong about PDK, I would hazard to guess you are dead wrong about the 9A1 motor.
BTW, ltc, still waiting on an answer about whether it is still your position that PAG got it wrong when they introduced the PDK.
And if you were dead wrong about PDK, I would hazard to guess you are dead wrong about the 9A1 motor.
IIRC, after the release of the PDK with the "wrong" buttons, PAG then came out and offered "proper paddles" for the PDK as an option at the time of ordering.
12-13-2009, 01:43 PM
#149
Rennlist Member
Brendan's buying a turbo? Go for it....I'm LOVING mine despite Boolala's protests. Great DD and fun at the track.
12-13-2009, 02:39 PM
#150
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^ i may, but have to close this deal on my 997 first.
I'm NOT buying a 2010 tt or a turbo S right now. i would like you to respect my privacy and try not to talk me into one of those because it would result in my having to remove my children from their fancy private schools
my priority was a 2009 PDK but i found a 2008 turbo, 12k mi, loaded to the gills, pccbs, etc. $160k list, available for less than $110. hence, my "trolling", getting a better sense of what the RL community has to say about the turbos.
I'm NOT buying a 2010 tt or a turbo S right now. i would like you to respect my privacy and try not to talk me into one of those because it would result in my having to remove my children from their fancy private schools
my priority was a 2009 PDK but i found a 2008 turbo, 12k mi, loaded to the gills, pccbs, etc. $160k list, available for less than $110. hence, my "trolling", getting a better sense of what the RL community has to say about the turbos.