boolala

Thread started in the off topic section but for those who can't access it here's a link to the youtube video review of the new TT by autocar (the "bad news", of course, is for those who bought the previous generation):

Alex (UK)

...and kept it stock!

I went from a Carrera S to a stock Turbo and that was twice the car the Carrera was. I then moded the wheels, exhaust, ECU, and then the suspension and it became twice the car again.

So "bad news" is not something I think when I drive my "previous generation" Turbo as the new one would literally need to be able to fly in order to go one better! The ONLY thing I am not 100% in love with on my car is the body-shape at the rear and the rear wing - something one day I hope to rectify with a TechArt II kit.

I see the new car and I think:

1) Given the HUGE margin they are now making on each new Turbo, Porsche is effectively steeling from the rich to give to the creditors. That would seriously p*** me off as I like getting value for money.

2) The quietest 911 they have ever made - wrong direction Porsche!

3) PDK = less driver involvement with launch control that in the real world would never get used. PDK being the only thing that is achieving these staggering (yet irrelevant) 0-60mph times.

4) A car that would be very risky to modify (both PDK and the new engine)

5) A car that is even more ugly than before given the bigger shrek ears and squinty rear lights.

6) Suspension still not adjustable (only available on GT models) so can't tailor it to driver style or road types.

7) They keep going on about the staggering power. It's still only 500bhp, and 700Nm torque. A basic stage II old Turbo will be about 550bhp and 800Nm torque. PDK or not, the in gear acceleration G-forces will be way less in the new car. Let's have a 997.1 Turbo Stage II+ owner review the 997.2 Turbo before we all start getting giddy with excitement shall we. These journalists get to drive 500+ bhp cars once every 6 months, we drive them every single day.

Bad news, not even close...

TB993tt

There are a few on here, Mr Boolala inc who seem to enjoy baiting and winding up the "enthusiasts", "beardies", "traditionalists" (whatever moniker one wants to use) about the new turbo.

Every single new iteration of the "911" recieved a similar response from the "old guard" . I got "involved" in this phenomena really from the 3.2 Carrera to the 964 Carrera when it was obvious the 911 had gone soft, and it had, I changed from 3.2 to 964/2 (back in '91) and it was amazingly quiet and refined, so quiet that it had a Ruf cup pipe on within weeks. The 964 had lost a lot of what made the 911 a 911 but it was a better car in many respects.

There is no doubt that in all aspects the new turbo is an advancement - I love the vectoring tech and the active mounts, the PDK, the TC/PSM and the build quality which (after diving horribly for the 996 series) they now are getting very right.

The problem is specific and it is the engine. Yes the mags will blurb out all Porsche's marketing about the new tech on the engine and I have zero doubt that in standard tune it is peachy with better response courtesy of its 9.8:1 CR, 3.8 litres and DFI.
There is no doubt that it is a much more advanced engine than previous for a road going Porsche turbo.

The problem for me is that it is Porsche's final (GT3 hanging on by its coat tails) nail in the coffin for building the sort of cars with engines which enabled them to be used in the way which has built the brand to be what it is.

These new DFI engines are built to a price and replace an engine which has been so honed from the racetrack that it is a masterpiece which can have 100hp simply added to it without altering its durability. I don't think Porsche newbies know (or care) just how much development has gone into making the Metzger engine into the thing it is ?
Consider that RS Tuning who is THE master Porsche turbo engine builder builds a Metzer VTG turbo engine with 4.1litre, 9.5:1CR, expensive intercooling and properly mapped (like the factory) to give 700PS AT 1 BAR BOOST with 900NM at 3000rpm !!!!- these engine are smoother, more responsive and more frugal than stock and will last as long as stock the only problem is PRICE.
Porsche is making a massive profit on the Turbo model - IMO they should be giving each turbo an RS type engine and charge even more money, move the flagship up market and really flatten the competition with the performance.....

How things play out in the future will be fascinating. Of course 95+% of Porsche turbo buyers will believe Porsche and be overly happy with the new advanced lump, but what happens when people start to "chip"/"flash" them, this will be the interesting part.

The OP's (and others) baiting of Metzger 997tt owners on here is I suspect a little naive, 997tt.1 RLers know what they have, it is the "I want the latest and greatest" brigade who may be insecure about knowledgable people doing down their purchase.....

TT Gasman

I think Mr boolala must sell cars or something.

Eric - Plug Guy

I'm not the least bit disappointed. Got one of the last '09 Turbos on purpose....

And yes, Porsche is a giant thief. They produce a much cheaper engine for this model for '10, saving upwards of 20k, and increase the price of the vehicle. That alone made my decision for me, knowing I had a long-proven historied engine, and a great deal on top of that, and nothing I've seen for '10 made my tongue wag.

Mad Manx

Unfortunately, I think that's what is called "an inflammatory post" - hence the responses

texas911

How do you guys know Porsche is saving $20K per engine? Are you guys accountants for Porsche or something? Being a brand new engine, I'm sure it had substantial R&D investment, including all new tooling, as opposed to the already amortized R&D on the old block. Its silly to say the cost of an engine is just its materials cost, just as ridiculous it is when people say it only cost $50 to make a computer yet they charge $500 for it. Hell, a CD only costs cents to make yet Microsoft charges $200 for it. What a rip off!

Land Jet

No one has even had time to assess whether this engine is even reliable, let alone whether it can be modded.. To trash it before seeing the results is at best short sighted. It could turn out to be a real stinker, but then again, it could turn out to be the best engine Porsche has ever made. Let's give it a year and see what develops.

I think Boolala is tweaking all the naysayers who have already pronounced this engine as garbage. And I'm with him if those guys can't even take a wait and see attitude.

TB993tt

Just posted this on another forum on a discussion about the next GT2, thought it apt for this discussion ?

My sources (German, supposed friends with engineers at Porsche) told me the RS models were actually built - limited numbers, stripped out ~570PS very expensive. Quite where it is is a mystery ? Someone mentioned a French test driver talked about involvement/being involved in the launch but that was a couple of months ago so ???? I reckon there are things going on in Porsche with the financial "fun", change of personel etc and also I wonder whether it has some connection with the 997.2GT2 which my source said was being developed and in particular the DFI engine in GT2 guise and ~550PS was struggling with reliability !! maybe they are rethinking launching RS GT2 just in case they can't do similar with the DFI version because of the engines power limitations........ people tend to forget just how much development went into the Metzger engine to reach the level of reliability it has as these heady power/torque levels and it seems tha Porsche cannot reach their standards of "reliability" at these levels with the DFI ? ?

TrackDays247.com

I would certainly HOPE the newer generation is an improvement.............

Alex (UK)

Very interesting Toby. So Porsche will be releasing:

997.1 GT2 RS = 570PS (with GT1 engine)
997.2 GT2 = 550PS (with DFI engine), or maybe if Porsche can't make that work then the 997.2 GT2 may just have the GT1 engine like the 997.2 GT3/GT3RS

Is that right? I assume if the GT2 does get the DFI engine then PDK will be available too (assuming it can handle the torque)?

TB993tt

That is what I understand.....

The question is the reliability of the DFI at these levels and the "headroom" which Porsche have always had on the turbo engines, will they compromise on their traditional "headroom" standards ? My guess is yes, the company has changed, first owners will not care since the warranty will look after them, future owners ? well look at the state of the 996 N/A market, who would want to buy one of those ?

The Metzger is dead I have no doubt, there is no way they could keep such a limited production (without the turbo) going......

ltc

No, just a troll.

Land Jet

Not really, he just has a different opinion than some.

ltc

I think the underlying "concern" is that the M64 (and its many derivatives) has set the bar rather high in terms of reliability and performance potential over more than a decade.
Furthermore, the 'higher performance' (some would say 'race derived') models (Turbo, GT3, GT2) always received a true dry sump, courtesy of the M64. It has always been the prevailing wisdom that a dry sump is always superior to a wet sump, in all conditions.

The sudden shift signals a permanent change in the thinking at Porsche, either marketing or technical.
Perhaps Porsche has figured out something with a wet sump (or integrated dry sump if you prefer the term) that no one else has, perhaps it will redefine the standard against which all other engines are measured.

Time will tell, but I think we will need more than a year to see this fully play out.

Perhaps Jeremy Clarkson is right....we have lived in a time where we are witnessing the end of true supercars....environmental, political, financial forces may dictate a permanent change in their design and performance.

Now, if they would only bring back wooden floorboards...