Definitive 991 GT3 Thread
12-12-2012, 04:57 AM
#197
Burning Brakes
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Thats just the point. Porsche didnt invest all that money in a 7 speed manual. They invested in a 7 speed PDK and ensured a manual box could be also achieved from the original design brief.
Sorry for the typo. 7.20 should read 7.28s for the Ring time. If we assume the 991 GT3+RS will be wearing more track oriented rubber than the 991S then this is entirely achievable. The 918 by the way is already proving it will be quicker than 7.20 infact on factory test driver has been gear saying it may well be a 7.15 car!
The 991 GT3 will eclipse the outgoing GT3RS. Assuming its packed wit PDK Id expect it to be a few seconds quicker around the Ring. Its likely to be lighter than the outgoing car or no heavier at least given the transmission choice. The RS variant will probably be 2-3 seconds quicker again through tyre choice, weight and geometry settings.
Sorry for the typo. 7.20 should read 7.28s for the Ring time. If we assume the 991 GT3+RS will be wearing more track oriented rubber than the 991S then this is entirely achievable. The 918 by the way is already proving it will be quicker than 7.20 infact on factory test driver has been gear saying it may well be a 7.15 car!
The 991 GT3 will eclipse the outgoing GT3RS. Assuming its packed wit PDK Id expect it to be a few seconds quicker around the Ring. Its likely to be lighter than the outgoing car or no heavier at least given the transmission choice. The RS variant will probably be 2-3 seconds quicker again through tyre choice, weight and geometry settings.
Just one more thing, in another forum where people were already 100% sure that there will be a Porsche 960 in 2-3 years, I always said - there will be no 960 soon..nobody believed me...now Porsche confirmed that there will be no 960 soon.
I didnt invent it..I got this info dircetly from the manufaturer.
PS: if Porsche claims an official time of 7:28..then in reality it will be few seconds slower..and then mircale or miracle we are back to the 997.2 GT3RS 3.8 /4.0 times - like Andreas Preuninger said. But I guess that youre so well informed that you know even this better...
12-12-2012, 05:01 AM
#198
Burning Brakes
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This is a difficult thing..although having talked to some people inside the factory, one gets different answers.
However, mostly they indicate that there will only be PDK. So it seems that Macca is correct on this. I personally would still prefer the two options..but it seems to go just in one direction.
PS: price will be around 145000€.
However, mostly they indicate that there will only be PDK. So it seems that Macca is correct on this. I personally would still prefer the two options..but it seems to go just in one direction.
PS: price will be around 145000€.
12-12-2012, 06:52 AM
#199
145K euro is ridiculous. I don't know who you are talking to at the factory but they are winding you up. For not a lot more you can get a Mclaren or 458 or Gallardo. Historically the GT3 has been about the same as a loaded Carrera S - currently at 100K Euro if you go nuts on the options. Carrera 4S Cabrio is 100K euro or thereabouts. I think that is much more likely in terms of price point.
Edit: Even going completely nuts on the C4S Cabrio + options doesn't break through 125K Euro
And one variant PDK and one variant manual doesn't make sense either. PDK is a LOT quicker than manual in acceleration and in braking zones and people will not be impressed when the RS is slower than the GT3 in the hands of "normal" drivers.
It also really doesn't make sense to abandon the GT3 concept. Its been massively successful for Porsche. While you could argue that from the 996.1 to the 997.2 RS the car has undergone a pretty big transformation it hasn't exactly lost its appeal, or put on a lot of weight, or been any less of an icon.The only additions to the car that I don't care for are PASM and PSM/TC/SC. PASM is not that big a deal and PSM/TC/SC can be switched off at the flick of a button.
Making the car more accessible to everyman is also not a killer as most would like to believe - witness the entire FIA-GT3 grid of cars - GT3R has TC/ABS/Paddle shift, SLS has same, Z4 has TC/ABS/Paddle/ESP!!!. Compared to Cup which has nothing.
Its not a great sign that the road and race car will not share engine technology and it remains to be seen where that goes. Porsche will have to stop racing the Mezger because DFI cars are where they need to be. Maybe the 9A1 is 1 season behind in racing. Who knows. I bet Porsche doesn't even know yet.
Edit: Even going completely nuts on the C4S Cabrio + options doesn't break through 125K Euro
And one variant PDK and one variant manual doesn't make sense either. PDK is a LOT quicker than manual in acceleration and in braking zones and people will not be impressed when the RS is slower than the GT3 in the hands of "normal" drivers.
It also really doesn't make sense to abandon the GT3 concept. Its been massively successful for Porsche. While you could argue that from the 996.1 to the 997.2 RS the car has undergone a pretty big transformation it hasn't exactly lost its appeal, or put on a lot of weight, or been any less of an icon.The only additions to the car that I don't care for are PASM and PSM/TC/SC. PASM is not that big a deal and PSM/TC/SC can be switched off at the flick of a button.
Making the car more accessible to everyman is also not a killer as most would like to believe - witness the entire FIA-GT3 grid of cars - GT3R has TC/ABS/Paddle shift, SLS has same, Z4 has TC/ABS/Paddle/ESP!!!. Compared to Cup which has nothing.
Its not a great sign that the road and race car will not share engine technology and it remains to be seen where that goes. Porsche will have to stop racing the Mezger because DFI cars are where they need to be. Maybe the 9A1 is 1 season behind in racing. Who knows. I bet Porsche doesn't even know yet.
12-12-2012, 07:13 AM
#200
Well...I dont feel like commenting your stuff much more in detail..of course if there was a typo..then this already explains some things.
Just one more thing, in another forum where people were already 100% sure that there will be a Porsche 960 in 2-3 years, I always said - there will be no 960 soon..nobody believed me...now Porsche confirmed that there will be no 960 soon.
I didnt invent it..I got this info dircetly from the manufaturer.
PS: if Porsche claims an official time of 7:28..then in reality it will be few seconds slower..and then mircale or miracle we are back to the 997.2 GT3RS 3.8 /4.0 times - like Andreas Preuninger said. But I guess that youre so well informed that you know even this better...
Just one more thing, in another forum where people were already 100% sure that there will be a Porsche 960 in 2-3 years, I always said - there will be no 960 soon..nobody believed me...now Porsche confirmed that there will be no 960 soon.
I didnt invent it..I got this info dircetly from the manufaturer.
PS: if Porsche claims an official time of 7:28..then in reality it will be few seconds slower..and then mircale or miracle we are back to the 997.2 GT3RS 3.8 /4.0 times - like Andreas Preuninger said. But I guess that youre so well informed that you know even this better...
12-12-2012, 08:09 AM
#203
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
For what its worth my sources say 111,000 Euro plus taxes in germany and options including 4500 Euro for RHD upcharge. Tha'ts 144k usd today before tax. This makes sense because from prior variants it would seem the USA enjoy a modest price benefit over european customers.
You can put me down for 455bhp, 8800-9000 rpm limiter, 9A1, PDK only, 0-100 in 3.6-3.8s and Ring time of 7.28s with a top speed of 298kmph for what its worth and Ill die by the sword as well as living by it...Happy to throw in there weight at 1370kg and modified PKF shift-maps and slightly tweaked steering rack ratios (electronic calibration). I guess well wait till late Feb and see if Im close....
You can put me down for 455bhp, 8800-9000 rpm limiter, 9A1, PDK only, 0-100 in 3.6-3.8s and Ring time of 7.28s with a top speed of 298kmph for what its worth and Ill die by the sword as well as living by it...Happy to throw in there weight at 1370kg and modified PKF shift-maps and slightly tweaked steering rack ratios (electronic calibration). I guess well wait till late Feb and see if Im close....
12-12-2012, 11:21 AM
#204
Nordschleife Master
For what its worth my sources say 111,000 Euro plus taxes in germany and options including 4500 Euro for RHD upcharge. Tha'ts 144k usd today before tax. This makes sense because from prior variants it would seem the USA enjoy a modest price benefit over european customers.
You can put me down for 455bhp, 8800-9000 rpm limiter, 9A1, PDK only, 0-100 in 3.6-3.8s and Ring time of 7.28s with a top speed of 298kmph for what its worth and Ill die by the sword as well as living by it...Happy to throw in there weight at 1370kg and modified PKF shift-maps and slightly tweaked steering rack ratios (electronic calibration). I guess well wait till late Feb and see if Im close....
You can put me down for 455bhp, 8800-9000 rpm limiter, 9A1, PDK only, 0-100 in 3.6-3.8s and Ring time of 7.28s with a top speed of 298kmph for what its worth and Ill die by the sword as well as living by it...Happy to throw in there weight at 1370kg and modified PKF shift-maps and slightly tweaked steering rack ratios (electronic calibration). I guess well wait till late Feb and see if Im close....
12-12-2012, 01:57 PM
#205
Race Director
For what its worth my sources say 111,000 Euro plus taxes in germany and options including 4500 Euro for RHD upcharge. Tha'ts 144k usd today before tax. This makes sense because from prior variants it would seem the USA enjoy a modest price benefit over european customers.
You can put me down for 455bhp, 8800-9000 rpm limiter, 9A1, PDK only, 0-100 in 3.6-3.8s and Ring time of 7.28s with a top speed of 298kmph for what its worth and Ill die by the sword as well as living by it...Happy to throw in there weight at 1370kg and modified PKF shift-maps and slightly tweaked steering rack ratios (electronic calibration). I guess well wait till late Feb and see if Im close....
You can put me down for 455bhp, 8800-9000 rpm limiter, 9A1, PDK only, 0-100 in 3.6-3.8s and Ring time of 7.28s with a top speed of 298kmph for what its worth and Ill die by the sword as well as living by it...Happy to throw in there weight at 1370kg and modified PKF shift-maps and slightly tweaked steering rack ratios (electronic calibration). I guess well wait till late Feb and see if Im close....
In any event, I do have a feeling you're close on your predictions, and as you say we'll know soon enough.
12-12-2012, 04:57 PM
#206
Addict
Rennlist Member
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The steering ratios are entirely controlled mechanically by the rack (not adjustable). The electronic calibration only affects the amount of servo assist (turning resistance and artificial feedback in the wheel).
Of course the steering rack may again feature slower ratio near center position to avoid inadvertently changing lanes while sipping latte...
Of course the steering rack may again feature slower ratio near center position to avoid inadvertently changing lanes while sipping latte...
12-12-2012, 06:16 PM
#207
Burning Brakes
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For what its worth my sources say 111,000 Euro plus taxes in germany and options including 4500 Euro for RHD upcharge. Tha'ts 144k usd today before tax. This makes sense because from prior variants it would seem the USA enjoy a modest price benefit over european customers.
You can put me down for 455bhp, 8800-9000 rpm limiter, 9A1, PDK only, 0-100 in 3.6-3.8s and Ring time of 7.28s with a top speed of 298kmph for what its worth and Ill die by the sword as well as living by it...Happy to throw in there weight at 1370kg and modified PKF shift-maps and slightly tweaked steering rack ratios (electronic calibration). I guess well wait till late Feb and see if Im close....
You can put me down for 455bhp, 8800-9000 rpm limiter, 9A1, PDK only, 0-100 in 3.6-3.8s and Ring time of 7.28s with a top speed of 298kmph for what its worth and Ill die by the sword as well as living by it...Happy to throw in there weight at 1370kg and modified PKF shift-maps and slightly tweaked steering rack ratios (electronic calibration). I guess well wait till late Feb and see if Im close....
a "naked" 991S is 102,436€ in Germany..so for ~8000€ more, one would get a GT3?
http://www.porsche.com/germany/model...911-carrera-s/
Note that current prices of Porsches in Germay will be raised some time in January (roughly 2% I think). So by the time the GT3 is there..the difference will be even smaller than what it is now.
The 3.8 997 cost more than 111,000€ ..the first 3.6 GT3 I had was 104 base price..but Im not sure anymore..
Just realise you were talking of 111 without tax..ok..than add the tax..and youre not far away from 140 what I said above..
Last edited by P_collector; 12-12-2012 at 06:41 PM. Reason: grammar
12-13-2012, 02:26 AM
#208
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The 997.2 GT3 was 98,100 Euro + tax when last listed in Germany.
I have it on good account we will see an 8% base price increase plus PDK (5000 Euro option). For RHD markets there is a 4500 Euro uplift and trans-shipping charge to the dealer agent (i.e. UK). Essentially we are talking 115.4k Euro + taxes in UK equivalent pounds.
Heres an article on the new 991 GT3 cup just published on Auto Express online. It gives some clues as to what we may expect.
The new Porsche 911 GT3 Cup race car gets 453bhp and a six-speed paddle-shift gearbox
Porsche has revealed a race-ready version of its latest 911. The 911 GT3 Cup, which will be built on the same production line as road-going versions of the 911, is a lightweight, stripped out 991 that’s been designed for a one-make race series.
Its aggressive body kit, low ride height and massive rear wing are the clearest racing additions, but the 911 GT3 also gets lightweight wheels and body panels to reduce weight by around 40kg over a regular 911. Powered by a 453bhp version of the 3.8-litre flat-six engine, it has 9bhp more than the previous GT3 racer.
The GT3 Cup will use a six-speed gearbox with steering wheel-mounted shifters – the first time a 911 has not featured a traditional H-type manual gearbox. There’s also an uprated braking system and wider Michelin slick tyres for even more grip.
Porsche says that it has placed emphasis on driver safety, with a newly developed driver’s race seat that’s adjustable around the shoulder and neck area for better support. There’s also a more rigid roll-cage and even an escape hatch for drivers, making it the safest 911 GT3 ever.
The roadgoing version of the Porsche 911 GT3 won't be quite as radical as this but it won’t differ greatly from the car you see here, with most of the usual road car luxuries removed in the name of weight reduction and absolute performance.
While the racecar costs around £145,000, the roadgoing version of the Porsche 911 GT3 is expected to cost around £100,000 when it arrives in showrooms late next year.
I have it on good account we will see an 8% base price increase plus PDK (5000 Euro option). For RHD markets there is a 4500 Euro uplift and trans-shipping charge to the dealer agent (i.e. UK). Essentially we are talking 115.4k Euro + taxes in UK equivalent pounds.
Heres an article on the new 991 GT3 cup just published on Auto Express online. It gives some clues as to what we may expect.
The new Porsche 911 GT3 Cup race car gets 453bhp and a six-speed paddle-shift gearbox
Porsche has revealed a race-ready version of its latest 911. The 911 GT3 Cup, which will be built on the same production line as road-going versions of the 911, is a lightweight, stripped out 991 that’s been designed for a one-make race series.
Its aggressive body kit, low ride height and massive rear wing are the clearest racing additions, but the 911 GT3 also gets lightweight wheels and body panels to reduce weight by around 40kg over a regular 911. Powered by a 453bhp version of the 3.8-litre flat-six engine, it has 9bhp more than the previous GT3 racer.
The GT3 Cup will use a six-speed gearbox with steering wheel-mounted shifters – the first time a 911 has not featured a traditional H-type manual gearbox. There’s also an uprated braking system and wider Michelin slick tyres for even more grip.
Porsche says that it has placed emphasis on driver safety, with a newly developed driver’s race seat that’s adjustable around the shoulder and neck area for better support. There’s also a more rigid roll-cage and even an escape hatch for drivers, making it the safest 911 GT3 ever.
The roadgoing version of the Porsche 911 GT3 won't be quite as radical as this but it won’t differ greatly from the car you see here, with most of the usual road car luxuries removed in the name of weight reduction and absolute performance.
While the racecar costs around £145,000, the roadgoing version of the Porsche 911 GT3 is expected to cost around £100,000 when it arrives in showrooms late next year.
12-13-2012, 02:02 PM
#209
Three Wheelin'
Someone posted elsewhere in this thread or another one that they heard from a dealer source that base price would be around $135K USD. This makes some sense from the standpoint that it keeps the US price difference between the 991 GT3 and 991 Carrera S similar to what it was between the 997.2 GT3 and the 997.2 S, while still accounting for standard PDK and a general price increase.
In any event, I do have a feeling you're close on your predictions, and as you say we'll know soon enough.
In any event, I do have a feeling you're close on your predictions, and as you say we'll know soon enough.
C2 - 4.3k, 5.5% increase
C2S - 5.9k, 6.51%
C2 cab - 4.9k, 5.5%
C2S cab - 6.5k, 6.4%
C4 - 5.6k, 6.59%
C4S - 7.3k, 7.45%
C4 cab - 6.4k, 6.66%
C4S cab - 8.1k, 7.43%
I believe the MSRP for 997.2 GT3 in it's last year (2011) was $116k here in the US. Even if we assume the price goes up by 8% for GT3, it would put the base MSRP around - $125k (USD). Now I have no idea if PDK (and other alphabet soup) is standard and if it will be included in the usual price increase or will hike the price even more on top of that. For example PCM is standard on 991, but was an option on 997.2, but that price is included in the % price increase I listed above.
12-13-2012, 02:13 PM
#210
Race Director
I believe the MSRP for 997.2 GT3 in it's last year (2011) was $116k here in the US. Even if we assume the price goes up by 8% for GT3, it would put the base MSRP around - $125k (USD). Now I have no idea if PDK (and other alphabet soup) is standard and if it will be included in the usual price increase or will hike the price even more on top of that. For example PCM is standard on 991, but was an option on 997.2, but that price is included in the % price increase I listed above.