While in Germany...
07-22-2009, 10:32 AM
#226
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Trying to be the driver my car wants me to be
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07-22-2009, 10:39 AM
#228
Rennlist Member
07-22-2009, 10:57 AM
#229
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Trying to be the driver my car wants me to be
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07-22-2009, 05:10 PM
#230
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Trying to be the driver my car wants me to be
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I have some more pics of the Ring to post and also Museum Pics. I am heading up to Mosport for an event up there this weekend and do not think there is any internet access up there. I will just stay right at the track in my RV and do not use a hotel. I will be able to sift through the rest of the pics while up there and will post by Monday of next week.
I also will post a "To Do" list if anybody repeats this kind of a trip with website info also attached. It will basically just be a "guide" to what I did and any other advice to offer.
So check back next week to see what else gets posted here. I am sure there are some other tidbits here and there.
I must say it has been awesome to see the response from you guys on the trip! I do not think the average person can understand what an awesome trip this was. This truly is a thread for Rennlisters to enjoy. On the way to the airport to return home I was amazed that I actually pulled off this kind of a trip. In some sense it was too good to be true.
I will submit an article of the trip to Panorama. Perhaps they will find the trip equally interesting and will print it. I wonder if other magazines like Road and Track would be interested.
Thanks again for all the interest and support on this thread.
I also will post a "To Do" list if anybody repeats this kind of a trip with website info also attached. It will basically just be a "guide" to what I did and any other advice to offer.
So check back next week to see what else gets posted here. I am sure there are some other tidbits here and there.
I must say it has been awesome to see the response from you guys on the trip! I do not think the average person can understand what an awesome trip this was. This truly is a thread for Rennlisters to enjoy. On the way to the airport to return home I was amazed that I actually pulled off this kind of a trip. In some sense it was too good to be true.
I will submit an article of the trip to Panorama. Perhaps they will find the trip equally interesting and will print it. I wonder if other magazines like Road and Track would be interested.
Thanks again for all the interest and support on this thread.
07-22-2009, 08:55 PM
#232
Rennlist Member
Well, I have some more pics of the Ring to post and also Museum Pics. I am heading up to Mosport for an event up there this weekend and do not think there is any internet access up there. I will just stay right at the track in my RV and do not use a hotel. I will be able to sift through the rest of the pics while up there and will post by Monday of next week.
I also will post a "To Do" list if anybody repeats this kind of a trip with website info also attached. It will basically just be a "guide" to what I did and any other advice to offer.
So check back next week to see what else gets posted here. I am sure there are some other tidbits here and there.
I must say it has been awesome to see the response from you guys on the trip! I do not think the average person can understand what an awesome trip this was. This truly is a thread for Rennlisters to enjoy. On the way to the airport to return home I was amazed that I actually pulled off this kind of a trip. In some sense it was too good to be true.
I will submit an article of the trip to Panorama. Perhaps they will find the trip equally interesting and will print it. I wonder if other magazines like Road and Track would be interested.
Thanks again for all the interest and support on this thread.
Attachment 373066
I also will post a "To Do" list if anybody repeats this kind of a trip with website info also attached. It will basically just be a "guide" to what I did and any other advice to offer.
So check back next week to see what else gets posted here. I am sure there are some other tidbits here and there.
I must say it has been awesome to see the response from you guys on the trip! I do not think the average person can understand what an awesome trip this was. This truly is a thread for Rennlisters to enjoy. On the way to the airport to return home I was amazed that I actually pulled off this kind of a trip. In some sense it was too good to be true.
I will submit an article of the trip to Panorama. Perhaps they will find the trip equally interesting and will print it. I wonder if other magazines like Road and Track would be interested.
Thanks again for all the interest and support on this thread.
Attachment 373066
07-22-2009, 10:30 PM
#233
Rennlist Member
I also will post a "To Do" list if anybody repeats this kind of a trip with website info also attached. It will basically just be a "guide" to what I did and any other advice to offer.
Euro delivery for dummies is coming out!! :-) Awesome many thanks for posting..
07-23-2009, 10:49 AM
#235
Rennlist Member
Great thread, Mike! Cool to meet you at the Ring, and as you will see in the report of my first lap on the Ring (in your car, thank you again), this place is a must do. I'll be there with Larry and others at the BMW 3-day school August 3-5 and then Touristenfahrten the evenings of August 5 and 6. Room in the BMW school is still available!
Anyway, here is my report from the Sunday we shared on the Ring:
Saturday night into Sunday morning there was rain at the Ring. I was there for a track day with RMA, a British group similar to Kojote, Group 52 or Trackmasters--a for profit operation. I had rented a car from Ron Simons of RSRNurburg on the same recommendation. Because Formula 1 was on the Grand Prix circuit Sunday at 2 PM, I had to stay about 30 minutes away on Saturday night and then fight traffic into Nurburg on Sunday morning. As it turned out, I had dinner near my hotel and next to a large table of BBC Sports staff, so I guess I was not the only one to make hotel reservations late.
When I got to RSRNurburg I found my car, a V6 Alfa Romeo 75. It looked positively clapped out--dull paint, many small dents, gutted interior, bolted-in cage, race steering wheel with a massive extension, deep bucket seats with four-point harnesses and riding on R888s. I was not impressed. The good news was that I had unlimited mileage in this car and the suspension was extremely stiff and race car like. I soon learned that there were no synchros for second gear and the gear throw was very long. Ouch. Ron has other, modern cars for rent and they have mileage limits. I guess I should have known.
The drivers meeting started at 12:30 with some basic info. Graham, who runs RMA, asked for a show of hands of those who had at least 25 laps on the Ring already. Those who said they did got white wrist bands and were excused. We then got a long lecture on the dangers of the Ring, particularly in the wet or part wet, from Dale Lomas who works with Ron. We paid careful attention to the cost of Armco replacement and repair. Most of the Armco is three levels high and it runs about 40 euros per meter per level. The strong advice is to report ANY touch to a marshal immediately. If you do not, they will still see it on the CCTV and then they will lower the boom. If you report a touch that did no apparent damage, you might not have to pay anything. If you fail to report it, when they find you they will show you that the posts were moved back a fraction of an inch and to meet safety requirements a major section of the Armco must be removed and reset. That is punitively expensive--literally. We were then issued white wrist bands and wished good luck.
Ron said that we would talk at around 1:30 when the track opened to us to decide on staying with the sway bar and R888s or disconnect the sway bar and switch to street tires. When that time came, the track was drying so we kept the car as it was. I frankly doubt Ron had the staff to make a change anyway. The polizei change the roads into Nurburg into one-way streets to move traffic in and out more rapidly. Ron had arranged with the polizei for the traffic to run two-ways during a 15 minute window from 12:30 to 12:45 for us to get our cars to the track from his shop. I drove the Alfa to the track, following the masses.
The car park at the track was not large, and it was filled with fantastic cars. Ferraris, Porsches, Ariel Atoms, BMWs and a few pure race cars. The Alfa looked pretty sad. I had booked Ron to instruct for two hours, but he soon admitted that he was too busy to go out with me at 2:00. Rather than wander around the track for the first time on my own, I bummed a ride with Mike (a/k/a TeamDrugMoney on Rennlist). He had taken delivery of a 2010 GT3 at the factory two weeks before and had spent the last week on the Ring--a total of about 50 laps. He showed me the line for a lap and narrated some of the sections. At about 14.2 miles and more than 150 bends there was not much I was likely to remember of what he showed me, but I went out for a couple of laps in the Alfa by myself.
From the one lap and watching some of the 24 hour race at the Ring in May I had an idea of where the really tough, slow parts were. That said, I did not have the track much in mind for the first lap driving so I drove within my sight lines, something we do on most tracks but for one or maybe two corners. On the Ring virtually every corner has short sight lines and often a blind track out or apex. Driving within those sightlines uses LOTS of braking and is bog slow. After a half lap my brakes were fading and I was crawling. I slowed further to cool my brakes and found the fast bit of the track. My brakes were saved. After my second lap I came in, and there was Ron. After I cooled down, he asked me to follow him in another Alfa. We did three laps of lead/follow as he picked up the pace. His line was consistent and used lots of the track curbing in places that I was not ready to do. But following him gave me the confidence to charge into blind turns at speed, not a great speed, but plenty fast enough to be a problem if it was on the wrong line. The car started working and I got some slight drift in a few spots. Ron promised me that this would be fun, and it was.
Ron then asked another instructor to ride with me. I hooked up my communicator and Maurice gave me a turn by turn narration of the line, pointing out landmarks of white dots on the pavement, signs and other indicators. We did three laps that way. I was up to eight laps. Another break, a candy bar and a bottle of water, and I was ready for some more. This time I narrated the turns to Maurice. A lap of that was a bit tough--to talk and drive was challenging, especially when I realized I did not know where I was. There are many places where the wrong line will take you to a bad end, and I had in mind pretty well the slow ones of those, but not the fast ones. Consequently I was not as fast as I could have been, and the Alfa is not a fast car. The elevation changes are massive and if one does not go into several uphill turns "too fast" and let the hill catch you the car will over slow. Better safe than sorry, but I was leaving a lot on the table. Two more laps with Maurice's narration and I was ready for another break. I was up to 11 laps.
When I went out next I decided that I wanted to get to 15 laps driving. The track was scheduled to close at 7:30 when it was still very light, but the sun was low enough by the time I went out that in several spots it was blinding. A visor in the car would have been nice. When each of us went out on the first lap the marshals issued us a yellow flag. In case of an incident, we were to got back up the track around 50 meters and wave the flag at oncoming cars to warn them. I saw about eight people waving flags throughout the day, mostly in the slow bits that follow the fast bits, and mostly where there were spectators gathered to watch the crashes. There were also paid flaggers in several locations and most of the track is under CCTV coverage. I also saw about five emergency vehicles on track towing cars or picking up drivers. At about 7:10 as I was almost done with my 14th lap I saw waving red flags at each flag station. Coming onto the straight the light was red so I pulled off into the pits. There had been a major crash and the track had closed. Cleanup progressed slowly and the tracked did not reopen--last car would have gone out at 7:20 and the track was not open by then.
At the three-day BMW school I'll share a BMW 3-series street car on street tires with three-point belts, but I'll feel safer in the event of an incident than in the Alfa. I don't know what sort of speeds we'll get because this school is entirely lead/follow, but with what I remember of the track I'm sure it will be fun. There are many places where I can improve my line a little bit, and lots more where I am still wandering. By the end of that school I hope to have a good grip on the line. We will also drive the Grand Prix circuit--the bit that Formula 1 was using on Sunday. We won't have the crowds, but we'll have as much fun. I have one more day scheduled on the Ring after then, at the end of August. A total of five days and a number of laps in the double digits will not be enough to know the track, but it'll be a start.
Think about driving there some time. It's a blast, but get some quality instruction. There were about a dozen incidents of bent metal and several cars were totaled on Sunday. There was even some car-to-car contact, which is crazy for a track day. All that, and the track was dry and the weather almost perfect. (I did have some increased drift in a few turns when there was just a bit of a shower--the concrete there, as everywhere, gets slick when damp.)
Anyway, here is my report from the Sunday we shared on the Ring:
Saturday night into Sunday morning there was rain at the Ring. I was there for a track day with RMA, a British group similar to Kojote, Group 52 or Trackmasters--a for profit operation. I had rented a car from Ron Simons of RSRNurburg on the same recommendation. Because Formula 1 was on the Grand Prix circuit Sunday at 2 PM, I had to stay about 30 minutes away on Saturday night and then fight traffic into Nurburg on Sunday morning. As it turned out, I had dinner near my hotel and next to a large table of BBC Sports staff, so I guess I was not the only one to make hotel reservations late.
When I got to RSRNurburg I found my car, a V6 Alfa Romeo 75. It looked positively clapped out--dull paint, many small dents, gutted interior, bolted-in cage, race steering wheel with a massive extension, deep bucket seats with four-point harnesses and riding on R888s. I was not impressed. The good news was that I had unlimited mileage in this car and the suspension was extremely stiff and race car like. I soon learned that there were no synchros for second gear and the gear throw was very long. Ouch. Ron has other, modern cars for rent and they have mileage limits. I guess I should have known.
The drivers meeting started at 12:30 with some basic info. Graham, who runs RMA, asked for a show of hands of those who had at least 25 laps on the Ring already. Those who said they did got white wrist bands and were excused. We then got a long lecture on the dangers of the Ring, particularly in the wet or part wet, from Dale Lomas who works with Ron. We paid careful attention to the cost of Armco replacement and repair. Most of the Armco is three levels high and it runs about 40 euros per meter per level. The strong advice is to report ANY touch to a marshal immediately. If you do not, they will still see it on the CCTV and then they will lower the boom. If you report a touch that did no apparent damage, you might not have to pay anything. If you fail to report it, when they find you they will show you that the posts were moved back a fraction of an inch and to meet safety requirements a major section of the Armco must be removed and reset. That is punitively expensive--literally. We were then issued white wrist bands and wished good luck.
Ron said that we would talk at around 1:30 when the track opened to us to decide on staying with the sway bar and R888s or disconnect the sway bar and switch to street tires. When that time came, the track was drying so we kept the car as it was. I frankly doubt Ron had the staff to make a change anyway. The polizei change the roads into Nurburg into one-way streets to move traffic in and out more rapidly. Ron had arranged with the polizei for the traffic to run two-ways during a 15 minute window from 12:30 to 12:45 for us to get our cars to the track from his shop. I drove the Alfa to the track, following the masses.
The car park at the track was not large, and it was filled with fantastic cars. Ferraris, Porsches, Ariel Atoms, BMWs and a few pure race cars. The Alfa looked pretty sad. I had booked Ron to instruct for two hours, but he soon admitted that he was too busy to go out with me at 2:00. Rather than wander around the track for the first time on my own, I bummed a ride with Mike (a/k/a TeamDrugMoney on Rennlist). He had taken delivery of a 2010 GT3 at the factory two weeks before and had spent the last week on the Ring--a total of about 50 laps. He showed me the line for a lap and narrated some of the sections. At about 14.2 miles and more than 150 bends there was not much I was likely to remember of what he showed me, but I went out for a couple of laps in the Alfa by myself.
From the one lap and watching some of the 24 hour race at the Ring in May I had an idea of where the really tough, slow parts were. That said, I did not have the track much in mind for the first lap driving so I drove within my sight lines, something we do on most tracks but for one or maybe two corners. On the Ring virtually every corner has short sight lines and often a blind track out or apex. Driving within those sightlines uses LOTS of braking and is bog slow. After a half lap my brakes were fading and I was crawling. I slowed further to cool my brakes and found the fast bit of the track. My brakes were saved. After my second lap I came in, and there was Ron. After I cooled down, he asked me to follow him in another Alfa. We did three laps of lead/follow as he picked up the pace. His line was consistent and used lots of the track curbing in places that I was not ready to do. But following him gave me the confidence to charge into blind turns at speed, not a great speed, but plenty fast enough to be a problem if it was on the wrong line. The car started working and I got some slight drift in a few spots. Ron promised me that this would be fun, and it was.
Ron then asked another instructor to ride with me. I hooked up my communicator and Maurice gave me a turn by turn narration of the line, pointing out landmarks of white dots on the pavement, signs and other indicators. We did three laps that way. I was up to eight laps. Another break, a candy bar and a bottle of water, and I was ready for some more. This time I narrated the turns to Maurice. A lap of that was a bit tough--to talk and drive was challenging, especially when I realized I did not know where I was. There are many places where the wrong line will take you to a bad end, and I had in mind pretty well the slow ones of those, but not the fast ones. Consequently I was not as fast as I could have been, and the Alfa is not a fast car. The elevation changes are massive and if one does not go into several uphill turns "too fast" and let the hill catch you the car will over slow. Better safe than sorry, but I was leaving a lot on the table. Two more laps with Maurice's narration and I was ready for another break. I was up to 11 laps.
When I went out next I decided that I wanted to get to 15 laps driving. The track was scheduled to close at 7:30 when it was still very light, but the sun was low enough by the time I went out that in several spots it was blinding. A visor in the car would have been nice. When each of us went out on the first lap the marshals issued us a yellow flag. In case of an incident, we were to got back up the track around 50 meters and wave the flag at oncoming cars to warn them. I saw about eight people waving flags throughout the day, mostly in the slow bits that follow the fast bits, and mostly where there were spectators gathered to watch the crashes. There were also paid flaggers in several locations and most of the track is under CCTV coverage. I also saw about five emergency vehicles on track towing cars or picking up drivers. At about 7:10 as I was almost done with my 14th lap I saw waving red flags at each flag station. Coming onto the straight the light was red so I pulled off into the pits. There had been a major crash and the track had closed. Cleanup progressed slowly and the tracked did not reopen--last car would have gone out at 7:20 and the track was not open by then.
At the three-day BMW school I'll share a BMW 3-series street car on street tires with three-point belts, but I'll feel safer in the event of an incident than in the Alfa. I don't know what sort of speeds we'll get because this school is entirely lead/follow, but with what I remember of the track I'm sure it will be fun. There are many places where I can improve my line a little bit, and lots more where I am still wandering. By the end of that school I hope to have a good grip on the line. We will also drive the Grand Prix circuit--the bit that Formula 1 was using on Sunday. We won't have the crowds, but we'll have as much fun. I have one more day scheduled on the Ring after then, at the end of August. A total of five days and a number of laps in the double digits will not be enough to know the track, but it'll be a start.
Think about driving there some time. It's a blast, but get some quality instruction. There were about a dozen incidents of bent metal and several cars were totaled on Sunday. There was even some car-to-car contact, which is crazy for a track day. All that, and the track was dry and the weather almost perfect. (I did have some increased drift in a few turns when there was just a bit of a shower--the concrete there, as everywhere, gets slick when damp.)
07-23-2009, 10:14 PM
#238
Three Wheelin'
TDM, thanks for so much this write up it is totally awesome. I felt like I was with you every step of the way! Great job!!... but now I want a GT3.... darn it anyway!
07-28-2009, 12:18 AM
#239
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Trying to be the driver my car wants me to be
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great addition to this thread!
I am not sure, but this is definitely possible. I saw a BMW over there with Colorado plates. I talked to them and they said the hard part is getting the insurance while over there. I would suggest you talk to Ron Simons at RSR as he may be able to guide you on that. He has a shop right near the Nurburgring Nordschleife.
http://www.rsrnurburg.com/
Hey, Thanks for the support! I am sorry to get some of this stuff out so late, but I had just so many pics to get out and the trip was just so busy. Then when you get back you have to catch up with work, then I threw a trip to Mosport in the mix. Well, enought complaining for now, LOL
07-28-2009, 12:23 AM
#240
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Trying to be the driver my car wants me to be
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you do the Euro Delivery, here is part of the waiting room before you go upstairs to see your car.
Here is the area where you are introduced to your car. I was not sure what the people in the room were doing. It must have been some kind of tour.
Here is my GT3 and another one in the background. As I approached the car for the first time I was not sure which one was mine. The side lights give it away upon close observation.
Here is the area where you are introduced to your car. I was not sure what the people in the room were doing. It must have been some kind of tour.
Here is my GT3 and another one in the background. As I approached the car for the first time I was not sure which one was mine. The side lights give it away upon close observation.