Damn! Car in for #6 cyl scoring. Which way to go?
#181
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
It means that every engine will be built with every option, and sold when completed for the 2024 and beyond season. The down side to that is we will have hundreds of people on the list waiting to buy one when I finally complete the first ones. I have stopped taking orders at this point. I've sent the same canned reply out 11 times so far today. So many people waited too long, and they didn't even know it.
#182
Rennlist Member
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
People who purchased when you did do not know how lucky they were.I tried to tell them, but they just thought it was a sales ploy.
The Q2 2023 proposal completions we sent out after last week's webinar are up 9K over what your engine is proposed at. No one seems to care. Some Q3 slots were filled at these same prices, based on the stage and engine designation, since we filled Q2 in less than one hour following the webinar. I had some component allocations that got us 1/3 through Q3, but those are all filled now. I expect that the remaining Q3 and all Q4 slots will be an additional 4-5K over the prices that were gone over in last week's webinar for Q3. We won't know till I hold the Webinars for those in April, and September 2022.
We just proposed a 9A1 GTS @ 4.2L for over 50K, which is up 15K over what that engine sold for in 2019.
Put simply, if anyone had prices from us at an earlier date, those are wiped away completely. That said, no proposed engines are having their prices changed, since we have component allocations, and costs in place at the time of the proposal for all those jobs. Once in stone- it will not change here.
I don't see these dropping, and I don't think that I'll be able to work from a "made to order" perspective after Q4 2023, or maybe even Q3. If that happens we will shut all sales down, work away the backlog completely, and then change to another ordering format, only selling engines as they are completed, with a known cost, and end result.
The Q2 2023 proposal completions we sent out after last week's webinar are up 9K over what your engine is proposed at. No one seems to care. Some Q3 slots were filled at these same prices, based on the stage and engine designation, since we filled Q2 in less than one hour following the webinar. I had some component allocations that got us 1/3 through Q3, but those are all filled now. I expect that the remaining Q3 and all Q4 slots will be an additional 4-5K over the prices that were gone over in last week's webinar for Q3. We won't know till I hold the Webinars for those in April, and September 2022.
We just proposed a 9A1 GTS @ 4.2L for over 50K, which is up 15K over what that engine sold for in 2019.
Put simply, if anyone had prices from us at an earlier date, those are wiped away completely. That said, no proposed engines are having their prices changed, since we have component allocations, and costs in place at the time of the proposal for all those jobs. Once in stone- it will not change here.
I don't see these dropping, and I don't think that I'll be able to work from a "made to order" perspective after Q4 2023, or maybe even Q3. If that happens we will shut all sales down, work away the backlog completely, and then change to another ordering format, only selling engines as they are completed, with a known cost, and end result.
#183
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Call LN first, they no longer even offer RND Engine. But they gave me a few places that are somewhat close that can handle the build.
Ex: Kelly Moss Motor sports Madison Wi., Olsen Motor Sports Downers Grove, IL., Andy Speed and Suspension, Next door to LN ENG.
Anyone on reenlist spend 25-30K + with any of the above shops?
Ex: Kelly Moss Motor sports Madison Wi., Olsen Motor Sports Downers Grove, IL., Andy Speed and Suspension, Next door to LN ENG.
Anyone on reenlist spend 25-30K + with any of the above shops?
#184
Former Vendor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Everything hinges on what parts and importation costs me for a batch of engines based on engine family, stage and build period.
I only sold the slots that we had parts on hand for, or parts allocated for at a known price in the last webinar. That is why we filled some Q3 slots, but also why some people did not get their welcome package accepted. If we didn’t have the parts/ allocations for the parts for their stage and engine family I didn’t take on the work.
I am trying very hard to be fair, but also no over- commit. It is a fine line to balance on.
As a guess the prices will be up 4-5k by April based on trends and the hassles I have had to go through to get parts that no one else can get in this country. I have had to get exceptionally creative with acquiring parts and importing them on my own- because there’s no shipping containers. My method doesn’t need a container.
As an example I used to pay around 800.00 in shipping costs to create an engine. As of the end of 2021 that figure had surpassed 3,700.00 per engine. That’s just shipping.
@bgoetz
Yes, something like that…. But I hate it. Any other method of sales leaves us with commitments that will be near impossible to keep on absolute time lines.
The other possibilities are going back to creating more aircooled engines, where we can manufacture almost every part here in USA, and already do.
For Q4 I may not take on any water cooled stuff at all, and give us some breathing room and process time.
The hardest parts to find are those for M9X series of engines, so tabling this while trying to suck up every part we can is the best choice. Since we build engines for every rear/ mid engined Porsche from 1950- present day makes us very diversified, so we don’t depend on the M9X to stay busier than we want to be.
I’m also chopping the number of engines we build each year by 1/3 and making up for that with additional resource materials. We are all tired of killing ourselves for no reason.
The following users liked this post:
Scalp_em (02-01-2022)
#185
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
@bgoetz
Yes, something like that…. But I hate it. Any other method of sales leaves us with commitments that will be near impossible to keep on absolute time line.
Yes, something like that…. But I hate it. Any other method of sales leaves us with commitments that will be near impossible to keep on absolute time line.
Wow definitely feel lucky to be part of maybe one of the last groups that will be done this way, the process in itself has been an experience. That said, I am sure you will still make it some type of a FSI experience buying at the end.
Your approach to being ahead of the game, securing parts for each customer, and how you move engines through your facility is extremely impressive. Hopefully those reading really get some appreciation for how methodical your process really is and your “tell it like it is” approach continues throughout all levels of your business, even in situations where it may not directly benefit you. You could certainly over commit and take bigger risks to maybe make a bit more $, but you have the thoughtfulness to realize that doing so not only hurts the customer, but your employees/business.
As I think I have said before, all of the hoops (webinars, contracts, strict timing windows) seem to be as much for my benefit as a customer as they are for your benefit. Possibly more.
Last edited by bgoetz; 02-01-2022 at 10:10 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Scalp_em (02-01-2022)
#186
Former Vendor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Wow definitely feel lucky to be part of maybe one of the last groups that will be done this way, the process in itself has been an experience. That said, I am sure you will still make it some type of a FSI experience buying at the end.
Your approach to being ahead of the game, securing parts for each customer, and how you move engines through your facility is extremely impressive. Hopefully those reading really get some appreciation for how methodical your process really is and your “tell it like it is” approach continues throughout all levels of your business, even in situations where it may not directly benefit you. You could certainly over commit and take bigger risks to maybe make a bit more $, but you have the thoughtfulness to realize that doing so not only hurts the customer, but your employees/business.
As I think I have said before, all of the hoops (webinars, contracts, strict timing windows) seem to be as much for my benefit as a customer as they are for your benefit. Possibly more.
Your approach to being ahead of the game, securing parts for each customer, and how you move engines through your facility is extremely impressive. Hopefully those reading really get some appreciation for how methodical your process really is and your “tell it like it is” approach continues throughout all levels of your business, even in situations where it may not directly benefit you. You could certainly over commit and take bigger risks to maybe make a bit more $, but you have the thoughtfulness to realize that doing so not only hurts the customer, but your employees/business.
As I think I have said before, all of the hoops (webinars, contracts, strict timing windows) seem to be as much for my benefit as a customer as they are for your benefit. Possibly more.
Making more is really making less, because I learned a long time ago that the more you make, the less you retain.
Being versatile, and able to handle any challenge with certainty is the greatest advantage that we have. I was always the guy that had to do the most with the least, so when you get used to that, and keep practicing it,( even when you don't have to) you get a knack for dealing with anything that is thrown at you.
We have 18 months before any changes will be made, but the slots to fill those 18 months are almost filled already. We may go over a solid year with no new sales, if I change the program to an on- demand style of order fulfillment. The only way this will work is if every engine has every option, because if it doesn't, the buyer would want to add something that could not be added.
What I hate most about having to change to this is the core charges and hassles that will be the norm. I always see a core charge as a point of potential argument, if the engine is broken and damage has to be collected for at disassembly. That means that we will likely never deal with a broken engine again, so only elective jobs would be accepted, where we have known core condition, not needing potential extra charges for broken parts. Nothing is a point of more contest than core fees that are assessed later. Those are the ways that the shady guys collect more money from their sales, because there's always more wrong with the core than anticipated.
I am not looking forward to the coming months. It would be a lot easier to just abandon the M9X families of engines for a while, and go back to aircooled until things turn around, and we can keep doing things the way that we always have. The other possibility is to dramatically reduce the amount of engines we build across the board, and let the world around us slow down a bit, while we wait it out. One thing is for sure, with each year that passes I care less about timelines, scheduling, and commitments. Each of those things are points that kill us, and that's why we remain on schedule when everyone, everywhere else is failing.
We have worked to perfect the process to the point that it is at now for over 15 years. Each milestone, and stage of the process has points that trigger actions. It works.
As I think I have said before, all of the hoops (webinars, contracts, strict timing windows) seem to be as much for my benefit as a customer as they are for your benefit. Possibly more.
As I type this I see a banner ad at the bottom of the page from a "pretender" who hasn't put his focus where it belongs. He lacks proficiency, and execution, as well as knowledge, and intestinal fortitude; therefore he has to advertise to try and take his share. If anything, I will keep pushing only to keep people like him in check, so they can keep that target on my back, forcing them to do better, and try harder. They'll never truly learn the secret to success, because they are too busy trying to make more money, rather than executing the craft. They have lavish showrooms, and a coffee bar where you can get a favorite latte, while I work on a converted turkey farm, inside buildings that I built with my own hands. Their crew has spotless uniforms, and I wear sweatpants with engine sealant stains on them, and a 20 year old T shirt. When the random customer shows up they think I'm the guy that cleans parts for a living, and I let them think that, so I can get my damn work done and not have to deal with PR. That's the difference.
Last edited by Flat6 Innovations; 02-01-2022 at 10:35 AM.
#187
Rennlist Member
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Wow definitely feel lucky to be part of maybe one of the last groups that will be done this way, the process in itself has been an experience. That said, I am sure you will still make it some type of a FSI experience buying at the end.
Your approach to being ahead of the game, securing parts for each customer, and how you move engines through your facility is extremely impressive. Hopefully those reading really get some appreciation for how methodical your process really is and your “tell it like it is” approach continues throughout all levels of your business, even in situations where it may not directly benefit you. You could certainly over commit and take bigger risks to maybe make a bit more $, but you have the thoughtfulness to realize that doing so not only hurts the customer, but your employees/business.
As I think I have said before, all of the hoops (webinars, contracts, strict timing windows) seem to be as much for my benefit as a customer as they are for your benefit. Possibly more.
Your approach to being ahead of the game, securing parts for each customer, and how you move engines through your facility is extremely impressive. Hopefully those reading really get some appreciation for how methodical your process really is and your “tell it like it is” approach continues throughout all levels of your business, even in situations where it may not directly benefit you. You could certainly over commit and take bigger risks to maybe make a bit more $, but you have the thoughtfulness to realize that doing so not only hurts the customer, but your employees/business.
As I think I have said before, all of the hoops (webinars, contracts, strict timing windows) seem to be as much for my benefit as a customer as they are for your benefit. Possibly more.
Jake--I'm sure you've already thought about this (you seem to be ahead of the game on most things), but I suspect the core exchange model will resurface a groundswell of 'how can I get it NOW?' requests. If there's one upside to the challenges we're seeing in the global supply chain, I'm hoping it's to restore an understanding across the general public that 'good things take time' and that we don't need to get everything overnight.
Last edited by sburke91; 02-01-2022 at 10:39 AM.
#188
Former Vendor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I was thinking the same thing. As one of those 'penciled in' 2023 Q3's (I thought I got my Q2 welcome package back fast, but others blew my doors off), I consider myself fortunate to have gotten into the process as what could be one of of the last ones in the current FSI model. I'm fortunate to be an elective build, and am enjoying the process tremendously.
If I do change models when it comes to how the engines are sold I'll need some way to do sales that is fair, else I'm going to have people complaining that they didn't have a fair way to purchase based on when the messages of availability of each engine was shared. People will bitch for no reason, but when they have a reason they'll leverage that into a complaint where we owe them a deal.
The answer may be completely abandoning sales, just building and developing; leaving sales and support up to another company. I like this, because then I could rip the phone off the wall, and blow it up.
#189
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Yes when your business consumes your life, never catching up, and now in a point where you have worked for this, but turning away sales is a bitter pill to swallow.
Managing 2 years out is difficult at best, no matter if you tell people upfront the time frame, you will have to hire someone just to answer the phone when they call 8 months earlier than you scheduled them. And then the whining starts , with demands.
I like the “you need to hire more people” or “you need to raise your prices”. If you could just clone yourself, because if you weren’t there, this demand wouldn’t be there. At least with these engines, you have guaranteed work forever.
Managing 2 years out is difficult at best, no matter if you tell people upfront the time frame, you will have to hire someone just to answer the phone when they call 8 months earlier than you scheduled them. And then the whining starts , with demands.
I like the “you need to hire more people” or “you need to raise your prices”. If you could just clone yourself, because if you weren’t there, this demand wouldn’t be there. At least with these engines, you have guaranteed work forever.
#190
Rennlist Member
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
We had to go back to the signature system and break the execution times down into seconds for 3 of the welcome packages, because 3 of them came in during the same minute. I used to think it was crazy to get the welcome packages back in 4 hours, and fill 16 slots the same day. Hell, we filled all the spots for Q2 and what we had parts allocations for in Q3 in less than 2 hours. The couple of outliers came in a little later.
If I do change models when it comes to how the engines are sold I'll need some way to do sales that is fair, else I'm going to have people complaining that they didn't have a fair way to purchase based on when the messages of availability of each engine was shared. People will bitch for no reason, but when they have a reason they'll leverage that into a complaint where we owe them a deal.
The answer may be completely abandoning sales, just building and developing; leaving sales and support up to another company. I like this, because then I could rip the phone off the wall, and blow it up.
If I do change models when it comes to how the engines are sold I'll need some way to do sales that is fair, else I'm going to have people complaining that they didn't have a fair way to purchase based on when the messages of availability of each engine was shared. People will bitch for no reason, but when they have a reason they'll leverage that into a complaint where we owe them a deal.
The answer may be completely abandoning sales, just building and developing; leaving sales and support up to another company. I like this, because then I could rip the phone off the wall, and blow it up.
Yes when your business consumes your life, never catching up, and now in a point where you have worked for this, but turning away sales is a bitter pill to swallow.
Managing 2 years out is difficult at best, no matter if you tell people upfront the time frame, you will have to hire someone just to answer the phone when they call 8 months earlier than you scheduled them. And then the whining starts , with demands.
I like the “you need to hire more people” or “you need to raise your prices”. If you could just clone yourself, because if you weren’t there, this demand wouldn’t be there. At least with these engines, you have guaranteed work forever.
Managing 2 years out is difficult at best, no matter if you tell people upfront the time frame, you will have to hire someone just to answer the phone when they call 8 months earlier than you scheduled them. And then the whining starts , with demands.
I like the “you need to hire more people” or “you need to raise your prices”. If you could just clone yourself, because if you weren’t there, this demand wouldn’t be there. At least with these engines, you have guaranteed work forever.
I hate to say it but after 25 years in my business, He's right Jake! Your in the "Sweet" spot of your career. Raise the prices, It is what it is People will pay. Anyone can order parts, what you offer does not have a part number. And hiring the right people would be harder than cloning yourself. Work less make more enjoy life. I hate to admit, but your borderline out of my price point already. But your selling the entire ball of wax. In your posts above, You already know what you have to do. Business is Business, It is what it is. Best of Luck!
#191
Former Vendor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Yes when your business consumes your life, never catching up, and now in a point where you have worked for this, but turning away sales is a bitter pill to swallow.
Managing 2 years out is difficult at best, no matter if you tell people upfront the time frame, you will have to hire someone just to answer the phone when they call 8 months earlier than you scheduled them. And then the whining starts , with demands.
Hiring someone to answer the phone doesn't work. That person would answer the phone, and not know exactly who he was talking to by the tone of the voice on the other end of the phone. We must know everything at all times, and that means that if the customer has to tell us who they are, we have already failed. Anything less, and he believes that he isn't important, or has been forgotten about.
I like the “you need to hire more people” or “you need to raise your prices”. If you could just clone yourself, because if you weren’t there, this demand wouldn’t be there. At least with these engines, you have guaranteed work forever
I hate to say it but after 25 years in my business, He's right Jake! Your in the "Sweet" spot of your career. Raise the prices, It is what it is People will pay. Anyone can order parts, what you offer does not have a part number. And hiring the right people would be harder than cloning yourself. Work less make more enjoy life. I hate to admit, but your borderline out of my price point already. But your selling the entire ball of wax. In your posts above, You already know what you have to do. Business is Business, It is what it is. Best of Luck!
You guys that have normal businesses will never understand the difference in business that comes from a custom atmosphere, dealing with an object that people are passionate about. Hell, people name these cars, and call them "my baby". There's nothing worse than this scenario fo me, because it demands more of my particular time, and I have to work even harder to make things flawless.
The hack guys that do stuff very cheap don't have to live with this. If something isn't perfect, they can just say "I bought the cheap one and got what I paid for". They are accepting of almost anything, even failure. I deal with them after what they bought cheap didn't work out, and I see how they just write it off and never even complain. Thats why you don't see posts here about cheap junk blowing up, even though it routinely does. They know that if they complain here that they'll be told they were a fool for buying the cheap one- they don't want to hear that, because they know that.
My scenario is quite the contrary. The expectation of perfection is applied to every single aspect of what we do. If we miss one update, or someone has to ask us for a status update, we have already failed. I once had a car shipped home with a dirty ashtray (none of us smoke) and the customer complained that we missed it. This is what we deal with, and as we've gained a higher grade from others, and worked our way up, the stress on the entire team is multiplied. I am exploring the possibilities of removing ourselves from the purchase process completely, which is ultimately the only way to go.
I own 4 businesses, and this one is the only one that is of a custom nature. What works for the other 3, do not work at all for this one.
Put simply, when I was building VW engines in a barn with a dirt floor, things were a hell of a lot better, easier, more forgiving, and I actually enjoyed it more. Having to keep the wood heater fed in the winter added to the work day, since I cut and busted my own wood. It took a while for the guys with Porsche cars to stomach the fact that their car was being worked on in a barn, but they came around.
![](https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/357x324/img_6761_4aaf8b59fef8d8967ac8008fc1d1f3e175f2b888.jpg)
Last edited by Flat6 Innovations; 02-01-2022 at 04:55 PM.
#192
Rennlist Member
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I wish My fishing boat engine would fit.
![](https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/1024x768/img_2625_792a8f7ac2a52e99a571c311f4f1cde1d24427e1.jpg)
Ilmor Mv-10
Last edited by BNB911; 02-01-2022 at 05:38 PM.
#193
Former Vendor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I've discussed these engines with Andy at Kelly- Moss, but didn't think he was interested in them.
As for steel sleeves, Jarno at Werksmotor in Germany is the only person that has been able to make steel sleeves work long term. On average I receive 2-3 reports of engine fitted with them needing "re- rebuilding" every month. I won't accept the jobs, because the mods botch the block so badly.
As for steel sleeves, Jarno at Werksmotor in Germany is the only person that has been able to make steel sleeves work long term. On average I receive 2-3 reports of engine fitted with them needing "re- rebuilding" every month. I won't accept the jobs, because the mods botch the block so badly.
#194
Rennlist Member
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I've discussed these engines with Andy at Kelly- Moss, but didn't think he was interested in them.
As for steel sleeves, Jarno at Werksmotor in Germany is the only person that has been able to make steel sleeves work long term. On average I receive 2-3 reports of engine fitted with them needing "re- rebuilding" every month. I won't accept the jobs, because the mods botch the block so badly.
As for steel sleeves, Jarno at Werksmotor in Germany is the only person that has been able to make steel sleeves work long term. On average I receive 2-3 reports of engine fitted with them needing "re- rebuilding" every month. I won't accept the jobs, because the mods botch the block so badly.