plpete84

Sorry to hear! It definitely goes to show that you can have very advanced scoring and show zero symptoms, which only means that we are all driving around with scored engines...most just don't know it yet. Yikes.

How are you going to handle the rebuild? It seems like depending on the route you go, it will be a few months without the car if you go with a local builder and probably as long as 2 years if you elect an FSI build. They seem to be filled for this year and have a growing waitlist.

radio_on

Nope, absolutely none. I had the car inspected before purchase, and mechanics listened to the sound of the engine, checked for burnt oil in the mufflers, checked for smoke , cold start, all running asymptomatic.

radio_on

I'm planning to go for The Hartech Porsche Engine Rebuild Approach, essentially stripping the engine, new nikasil coated cylinders & cylinder heads, and then put things back with new OEM parts such as bearings, distribution, oil cooler gaskets, bolts, etc Ohhh and also install a new cooling system (which opens at lower temperature)
I'm based in Europe and I am fortunate enough to find specialists (with 40y+ of experience on Porsche engines) who can carry out the rather complex operation.

It's not going to be cheap though

G.I.G.

Ugh, sorry to see this. That looks pretty advanced and like others, I'm surprised there were not noticeable symptoms of bore scoring from looking at those pictures.

Just curious if you ever had a used oil analysis performed and if so, what the aluminum levels were? Obviously there is no point in having that done now that you have confirmed scoring, but I'm curious if high aluminim levels in the oil could be an indicator of scoring while the engine is still asymptomatic.

Yeah, the price of a rebuild is what makes hearing these stories so painful. You'll have a better, probably more powerful, more reliable engine when it's all said and done, but stroking that check is the hard part.

You'll be in great hands with Hartech. Along with LN Engineering and Flat Six Innovations here in the states, Barry ("Baz") has been one of the leaders in identifying the design flaws of the M9X engines and coming up with solutions to help prevent failures, along with a great way to rebuild these engines to make them almost bullet proof going forward.

Good luck.

radio_on

I haven't done any oil analysis.

Thank you for the encouragement, I will let you know how the rebuilding went. I highly recommend prospecting buyers to specifically ask the service who carries out the checkup for bore scoping bank 4-6, before purchasing any 2nd hand 997/996. No matter how well maintained it was. It really can be hard to detect by outside symptomps.

By the way, this is how my engine sounds (in a previous recording to try to identify what appears to be the sound of a struggling pump):

BamaPCar

2006 C2S - 73k miles, no failure other than some mild scratching in the cylinder walls when borescoped at 72k miles. Car spent whole life in California and Texas.

plpete84

Do you have the photos? It may be just scuffing which is not abnormal.

BamaPCar

Sure, see below. Shop that scoped the car regularly tracks M96/M97 equipped cars, and is very familiar with the engines. He said it's really just scuffing to not be concerned about. The black spot in the 1st photo he said was likely due to a piece of carbon that may have been trapped.

plpete84

To my eye that doesn't look bad and not something I would be alarmed either. I received very similar images from a PPI when I got my 40th anniversary 996. My course of action will be to just follow best practices for warming up the car and replacing some parts that can contribute to scoring, like leaky injectors.

advrider1967

Ive done numerous "invasive" PPI's on 997's, both .1 and .2, and I must say that the poll data does NOT reflect what I see in my shop. My anecdotal observation is that easily >50% of either M96/97 or 9A1 will have scoring. Not "scuffing" (which is early stage scoring in any case) but full on scoring, at 12 and 6 o'clock, on every hole in the motor. 12 o'clock is typically more aggressive than the 6 o'clock.

Carreralicious

If this is the case, do all these folks who own the cars that you see the scoring rebuild them or do they just keep driving em? Do you suggest they rebuild them right away?

Prairiedawg

That's quite a statement, especially with the 9A1. Do you have any more information like typical mileage, model year, daily driver, etc? Pictures?

advrider1967

In the case of PPI's the vehicle belongs to someone else at the time of inspection. If a potential buyer is savvy enough to ask me to check bores, they typically walk away from the car if I find it.

If the car is in the shop at the current owners behest, the path forward hinges directly on the severity of the scoring. As people have posted here, many of these cars with mild to significant scoring appear asymptomatic. No excessive oil consumption, no black tailpipe soot, and no ticking. Of course I have seen cars that sounded like the next time you started it may be its last, the owner had assumed it was "typical of a 911", and has been driving it like that for years.

What a particular owner does varies by their wallet thickness, the car in question and how they see Porsche ownership. I have yet to see someone with an early Cayman S fix anything- the repair cost is the value of the car. They drive the hell out of it, knowing they will sell it later, and (I presume) hope the next buyer is clueless as to possible issues.

911's are clearly a different matter as their values are far higher. True believers will budget and fix, increasing capacity as an unintended "upside". Owners who bought the car because of the little gold thing on the hood will often just trade it in at a dealer on another marque. Which, brings me to a rule: If you see a Porsche at a Ford dealer (as an example) dont even bother looking at it. Chances are near 100% its there for the aforementioned scenario.

advrider1967

My shop is in Colorado. You can factor that into theories from Flat6 et al. Id say the average mileage is 40-60K, not a daily (no one DDs these cars here, I wish they did, they'd earn my unwavering respect). As I mentioned, Ive seen it in M96/97 and 9A1- so 1999 to 2012.

What confuses matters, for everyone, are the outliers. The '99 C2 with 22k whose oil has been changed perhaps 5 times in its life, or the 150K mile '10 C4 with bi-annual oil changes - both of which may look new in the bores.

I have pictures, but Im not sure what value they have to be posted- there is no shortage of grey fields with black and silver streaks in them.

plpete84

This is impossible to know but I'm curious about the owners of the cars that had bore scoring. Are they the owners of garage queens that do not get driven much, annual oil changes at best and idling the car for extended periods of time combined with short trips? All these are known contributors. I DD my car and there are many others that do, although that may be different in CO, but not impossible and unheard of. It's been proven many times that not treating a car like a car and more like a museum piece is in line with these and other issues. Not specific to Porsche. Just ask Ferrari owners about a belt and seal service with engine out after 3k miles over several years.

We are at a point where these cars are becoming more affordable to buy (but necessarily own) and the 3rd, 4th, 5th owners are the benefactors of the 1st or 2nd owner cars that didn't treat the car like a car.