Astraelraen

I just want to tell all you guys, my Targa 4S is better than your GTS(es)

ThomasCarreraGTS

No offense, but I have more confidence in Pete Stout’s experience driving cars than in yours. Again, no offense intended. Further, if as is stated above, it is based on an S plus a part from the GT3, then technically that is bespoke. It is unique to the GTS. Keep in mind the GTS is also a wide body RWD, unlike the S which is narrow body. Even the wide tires with Center Locks makes a difference, so again. If a credible automotive journalist with Pete’s experience states that he felt a difference, I’m going to accept that over your feelings or opinion.

I think we can all agree that Porsche hit it out of the park with the 997.2 GTS!

Abe Froman

So....it's a Carrera S suspension with different sway bars. Adding new buttons and taking a few inches out of a suit doesn't make it "bespoke".
The way you responded before was as if this was some clear-cut fact; there's no record other than one line written by one guy, Stout.

You wrote something based on something Pete wrote based on something he heard from someone who heard something from someone else.

None of what I wrote are my "feelings" or "opinion"....it's a conclusion based on the facts we know and a basic understanding of general human nature. Just the old game of Telephone.

mujeriega

Back to the forum topic.... is this a good deal?

$62k for '11 GTS PDK with 70k miles: https://www.racperformance.com/2011-...ton-TX/6102409

8Lug

Not really. Seems on the high end for the mileage and PDK.

8Lug

No one is questioning Pete's opinion about which car he thought handled better. That's largely subjective and if he liked the standard PASM better then no one can argue that.
What is being questioned here is your assertion (which is presumably only based on Pete's comment) that the standard PASM is a bespoke GTS suspension while the SPASM is a standard Carrera S SPASM. There is zero evidence to support this and all the evidence (part numbers, Porsche marketing material, etc.) to the contrary. If you still think the standard GTS PASM is bespoke, please identify the parts which make it so.
I agree that that the GTS is a better handling car than than the S. It's actually the best handling car I ever owned. But from what I can tell, thats due to the wider rear track, wider rear tires, and stiffer sway bar. Both the PASM and SPASM version benefit from these differentiators. Nothing bespoke to the PASM version.

Prairiedawg

As far as I can tell, the S,GTS, and C2,S, and GTS with SPASM all use the same sway bar PN 997 343 701 08

TheTorch

nochain19

they have had that one forever. seems overpriced for the miles. i emailed them to ask about it but they never emailed me back

Prairiedawg

AHAH! The GTS does use the Turbo S stabilizer bar. Oh Yeah, they put it on the base Boxster as well........Also causes cancer, but only in California residents.





Cayman 2012 Cayman R 6 Cyl 3.4L 2007-2008 Cayman Base 6 Cyl 2.7L 2006-2012 Cayman S 6 Cyl 3.4L 2009-2012 Cayman Base 6 Cyl 2.9L

Porsche Boxster Stabilizer bar | Porsche OEM Part Number 997-343-701-08

Porsche OEM part number 997-343-701-08 is a factory original Boxster Stabilizer bar. This is a genuine Porsche part, the manufacturer's recommended part for your vehicle. Porsche OEM part number 997-343-701-08 is illustrated in the image on this page as Item 1. Save money on all of your Porsche replacement parts when you buy genuine OEM parts from Porsche of Tampa Parts and benefit from low internet pricing, fast delivery, and the manufacturer's warranty on genuine parts.



WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm – www.P65Warnings.ca.gov

TheTorch

The list of models it fits is pretty long (I just showed the top before), although I am not sure if this means this bar came on each model, just that it fits them all ...

Prairiedawg

You are correct, I just looked it up. A Turbo S bar is 997 343 703 07. They both share the rear sway bar 997 333 703 03

stout

The more evidence, the better—and the part numbers are almost always revealing. My impressions are my impressions, and (as some have noted) just that. A piece of information and, yes, definitely subjective and not necessarily more valuable other than being based on driving factory prepared cars in period with a lot of other 997 reference points (all models, .1 and .2).

I agree that we lost sight of the goal of the exercise at some point here, and are maybe having two conversations due to terms like "handling" (result) and "suspension/chassis/setup" (method).

Most seem to agree on the result: The 997.2-based Carrera GTS handles really well. I have yet to meet someone who thinks otherwise (though that person may well be out there). The result I sensed was that the 997.2 GTS's handling with the standard PASM was something unusually special among modern 911s, and that made me want to know more about the method, which prompted questions to the head of 911 development behind the car, who mentioned his own particular satisfaction with the GTS's handling and how it came to be set up in the end. The other result I sensed while road testing these cars in period, which others may or may not agree with, was that I didn't find the GTS with Sport PASM to be quite as keen or sharp as the Carrera GTS without Sport PASM—or, for that matter, a Carrera S with Sport PASM. Since that is counterintuitive, I started asking more questions—and the eventual answer provided was that the GTS with Sport PASM did not get a special setup for the GTS—that it was more or less a Carrera S with Sport PASM, wider rear tires, and a wider rear track. And more rear grip > more understeer unless changes are made to offset that. It's entirely possible that the press car with Sport PASM was somehow "off" or had a bad alignment, but I don't recall any signs of that…and very few press cars delivered by PCNA over the last 20~ years have been delivered in poor or unrepresentative condition. I can probably count them on one hand.

About the method: I'd like to understand this better, too, because the result was perhaps my favorite 997 to drive on a back road save the RS 4.0. These were just very, very sweet 911 road cars. A lot of period reports based on press info as well as conversations with engineers—often by colleagues I trust for impressions as well as a commitment to ferreting out interesting facts—agree that the GTS had different rear tires, rear track, and anti-roll bars. And…AR bars would be an obvious way to rebalance the handling with wider rear tires and rear track. Some period reports suggest stiffer springs, others don't (Excellence never mentioned new springs that I can fine, and I went back and checked the three issues that addressed the 997.2 GTS). My gut is that the springs and dampers may well be the same between S and GTS, but the PASM controller and alignment settings may be different.

In the end, suspension is—of course—a system, and small changes to the tire package, track, an AR bar or both AR bars, and damper tuning can add up to "big" results…this before alignment tweaks. To me, 2-3 out of 4-5 of those changes would be enough to add up to a special setup. Someone else's mileage, and interpretation, may vary. My job is to evaluate the result to the best of my ability and report back on it to those who are considering a car—using my access to provide an early estimate of what a car drives and feels like to those who are interested, whether as buyers or fellow enthusiasts. I want to say thank you to Karl, whose work to gather info on the springs and dampers is another piece to the puzzle—as is TheTorch's. I think it really is worth figuring out exactly what Porsche changed on the GTS. If I had a 997 C4S, I'd be pretty interested in replicating it. If I had a narrow 997, I'd have to think a bit harder about that given the rear tires and track—but I remember the 997.2 Carrera/S being a very sweet package itself.

And, Karl, if you'd like to do something on the 997.2 GTS, please let me know. Would be fun to work together again, and while we've got a little something on the GTS slated for an upcoming issue, I have something else in mind as well. No rush, as I know your plate is often quite full!

Cheers,

Doug H

Haha, the GTS guys have crashed this thread.

stout

^ What a strange, unfounded comment.

^ This.

Your first point is a matter of philosophy, but it's based on an assumption that could be wrong. More information is needed. Your second and third points are flatly wrong. Articles noting multiple suspension-related changes for the 997.2-based GTS were published by many disparate sources with firsthand access to Weissach engineers responsible for the GTS (Autocar, EVO, Excellence, R&T, etc). As for the info I shared, it came from similar channels plus a one-on-one interview with the head of 997 development and/or subsequent written questions that required input from Weissach to answer.

What is apparently hard to find is a definitive list of the changes. As a fan of the 997.2 GTS, I'm curious too. But we've come to a strange place on Rennlist when speculative forum posts and hardbound dealer brochures (very low on the totem pole of model info from PAG) are trusted before vetted text for, say, Road & Track or answers/info from Weissach engineers. I only joined this conversation at the request of Prairiedog, and didn't realize it would turn into fellow Rennlisters suggesting I'll print hearsay. That's a pretty serious allegation, and I may need to reevaluate my contributions. The funniest thing here is I actually complimented the GTS in the R&T piece. Lol. Only on Rennlist…

Ah, but there is. You go on to state three differences below, but perhaps your definition of "bespoke suspension" is "utterly different suspension"? I guess I can see that, but even Carrera > GT3 is a matter of degree in the grand scheme of things…and tiny suspension tuning differences can add up to real, palpable changes.

I did a test years ago at Sears Point with a Spec 911 where the only change was damper valving, with Craig Watkins of SmartRacing & Flying Lizard setting the same 911 SC up with three different damper sets and realigning the car each time he swapped the dampers out…all on the same day. Talk about a lot of work! But it was worth it: The leap from new, off-the-shelf Bilstein Sports to custom-revalved Bilsteins was frankly shocking—that old 911 literally felt 10 or 15 years more modern. The third setup, a slight tweak to the rear dampers only, was frankly too subtle for me to pick up on—but it was something the car's owner wanted to try and he preferred it.

On this we agree. I don't think the superb handling of the 997.2 GTS is a coincidence, as it rarely is. From my philosophy of suspension, the differences between the S and GTS you mention above are enough to make the GTS chassis/suspenion unique. The result certainly is, this on top of a Carrera S that already handled well.