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RacerWannaBe-->Back in the late 1990's the 964 was considered an abomination by most Porsche guys who owned 911's. The bulbous designed bumpers were laughed at and they were a steal if you wanted to buy one.
Then sometime in the 2000's people started to appreciate them more and slowly they rose in value.
I always like the 964 and bought one from guy in LA. Flew down and drove it home. It was a 1990 model that leaked oil like a sieve. I used to put Diesel oil rags between the engine and plastic engine tray to catch the oil.
Sloppy mess after a couple of weeks.
It was a fun car and I liked the looks of the design.
Last edited by groovzilla; 02-24-2021 at 01:00 PM.
RacerWannaBe-->Back in the late 1990's the 964 was considered an abomination by most Porsche guys who owned 911's. The bulbous designed bumpers were laughed at and they were a steal if you wanted to buy one.
Then sometime in the 2000's people started to appreciate them more and slowly they rose in value.
I always like the 964 and bought one from guy in LA. Flew down and drove it home. It was a 1990 model that leaked oil like a sieve. I used to put Diesel oil rags between the engine and plastic engine tray to catch the oil.
Sloppy mess after a couple of weeks.
It was a fun car.
haha - yes you are totally right. I remember well that was the general sentiment. And yes the oil leaks are legendary. Thanks for sharing
Strictly an imaginary scenario. Put 25 997.2's on a parking lot. 20 PDK's and 5 manuals. Similar mileage and the most popular colors. Then invite let's say 50 individuals who in one way or another have shown interest in buying a 997.2 and have them submit a non binding offer on any of those 25 cars. Just to see how this broad spectrum of potential buyers value manuals vs. PDK. I may well be wrong but I'd be surprised if the manuals gathered a premium over the PDK cars from what should be a good representation of the marketplace as a whole.
I just spent 4-5 months searching for a manual 997 or 991.1.
I can’t tell you the amount of “amazing deals” would find their way to my inbox from my Cars.com/Autotrader/CarGurus from my search alerts, only to open the ad and confirm the trans visually or if no pics running the VIN in Vin Analytics and it was a PDK.
It was a frustrating journey.
So in my searching PDK cars seemed to have ask prices about $5-$7k lower as a rule of thumb than the actual manual cars.
Also not sure if a 10 year old Porsche is “general market” as we are the ones that are the oddballs.
If you asked 100 people on the street to choose between a $60k 10 year old Used Porsche over a new $60K M2 Comp most folks would rather have the BMW. Most people don’t want an old German car out of warranty due to horror stories from friends and families from the 80’s and 90’s.
Just like Auto NSXs I am guessing the separation may further a bit as the market gets less general and the death of manuals continues.
Interesting thread. After two years in a 997.2 and 50K miles, the plan is to wring out every cent of valuation in trade for for miles of smiles, then sell it for whatever I can get and do it all over again
IMO the 997, regardless of whether it is a .1 or .2, still represents a good value at today's prices. I think the situation is the classic 'a rising tide lifts all boats'. As noted previously, new cars today are expensive! When I see the prices of pedestrian sedans and SUVs I'm always shocked. A loaded Toyota Camry V6 is about $40k. A Civic Type R is $40k. An Audi A4 is $40-$50k. A stripper Chevy Surburban starts at $51k. Used vehicle prices have also been incredibly strong since the start of Covid, which has been part of the catalyst to set the overall price hikes across the various generations of 911 in motion.
At $35-$65k a 997 is a lot of car for the money. After owning my 997.2 for a few months, I'm starting to realize what so many others have known for so long...the 997 is a fantastic all around vehicle, not just a pure sportscar. In addition to fun country jaunts, I've picked my kids up at school and shuttled them around, grabbed groceries, etc. The car devours highway miles, and is soft enough to be plenty comfortable on B roads (although I find sport mode with SPASM unrealistically stiff for my local roads). It's relatively lightweight, drives small/doesn't feel like a boat, and is easy to park. It gets solid fuel mileage while having a huge fun factor. The interior in my .2 is fantastic, feels luxurious, and has plenty of technology to keep me happy. I can totally see why people happily use these cars as a daily driver. After owning about 50 sportscars over the past 20 years, I really don't know of a car that would be a better mix of fun and utility. I don't see many options at this price range that offer such a great blend of performance, luxury, and practicality. It's hopefully more robust and reliable than the variants from the 60s through the early 2000s, while retaining a road-connected driving character. I personally don't care about the perceived panache, brand equity, status, etc. that accompany a 911. In fact, I'd almost sometimes prefer that it was a Kia, as the comments friends, neighbors, and Joe Public make about the car make me feel awkward or embarrassed. What I tend to point out to them is that their $85k Tahoe or Bro Truck was way more money than my 911, which is usually met with perplexed looks.
The other important factor mentioned by others is the price of a new 992. They are incredibly pricey. If you do a quick search you'll find pages of Carrera 4S listed at $150k+!
So for me, the ten year old car is well worth a third or half the price of the newest variant, and it represents a tremendous value for what it is and what it can do vs. all other currently available vehicle options.
__________________
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IMO the 997, regardless of whether it is a .1 or .2, still represents a good value at today's prices. I think the situation is the classic 'a rising tide lifts all boats'. As noted previously, new cars today are expensive! When I see the prices of pedestrian sedans and SUVs I'm always shocked. A loaded Toyota Camry V6 is about $40k. A Civic Type R is $40k. An Audi A4 is $40-$50k. A stripper Chevy Surburban starts at $51k. Used vehicle prices have also been incredibly strong since the start of Covid, which has been part of the catalyst to set the overall price hikes across the various generations of 911 in motion.
I've thought the same thing. Stupid money for everyday boring cars that gets you to work and back home without much if any excitement. Given that close to 65% of the population doesn't have $500 for any emergency expense (25% have none) you have to wonder how so many of these cars are rolling around on the streets https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ne...ebt-2020-06-03
All I can think is that most dealers of most brands offer affordable leasing rates that opens the door for many with limited finances. I've seen rates below $200/month for small no thrills cars. So I wonder how many new Civics, Camrys and other similar cars out there are actually owned by the driver or the dealership. Same thing applies to higher end cars like BMW's, Mustangs etc. Many can't afford to buy those but can afford to lease them.
I've thought the same thing. Stupid money for everyday boring cars that gets you to work and back home without much if any excitement. Given that close to 65% of the population doesn't have $500 for any emergency expense (25% have none) you have to wonder how so many of these cars are rolling around on the streets https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ne...ebt-2020-06-03
All I can think is that most dealers of most brands offer affordable leasing rates that opens the door for many with limited finances. I've seen rates below $200/month for small no thrills cars. So I wonder how many new Civics, Camrys and other similar cars out there are actually owned by the driver or the dealership. Same thing applies to higher end cars like BMW's, Mustangs etc. Many can't afford to buy those but can afford to lease them.
That article is rather terrifying and depressing, but sadly not surprising. Most people I know outside of fellow industry folks and 'car friends' have no idea how nice of a used car one can buy. About three years ago one of my neighbors bought a brand new Camry, which cost him at least $30k. Not long after I bought a cherry one owner BMW 335i sedan with only 37,000 miles on it. The car literally looked brand new inside and out, had always been dealer maintained, had already had the major issues addressed that are typically a problem with that chassis, etc. I got the car for $12,750. When I brought it home, he oooed and awwwed about how nice the car was, and how he wished he could have afforded something more like that than his Camry. He then asked me what it cost. I asked him three times if he was sure I wanted to tell him, and I felt terrible telling him, because he looked like he swallowed a bumble bee. He was incredulous and I'm not even sure he truly believed me. He unfortunately has absolutely no idea what type of value is buried in the used car market, where to look for it, or what type of shovel to use to unearth it. It's certainly not in a car manufacturer's interest to educate him. Much of the desire for a new car certainly stems from the insatiable, 'must have the shiny new thing' sentiment.
I understand that people need a warranty in many cases, particularly those who have no mechanical ability. That said, there are many new cars that now come with lengthy powertrain warranties that would cover a used cars for quite a few years, and many of these dealerships like CarMax offer legit extended warranties at a reasonable price. That said, what's the real likelihood of a three year old Honda Accord having a multi-thousand dollar mechanical issue? I haven't kept up with those cars, but at one point I would have laughed my *** off if anyone even suggested that happening on a regular basis, as they were bulletproof. Along those lines, some of the new online auto sellers may be possibly moving the needle a bit with used cars. Carvana, Vroom, etc. have made a strong push towards opening average Joe's eyes to the fact that you can get a really nice used car with minimal effort. The lease thing surely makes sense for a lot of people though.
That article is rather terrifying and depressing, but sadly not surprising. Most people I know outside of fellow industry folks and 'car friends' have no idea how nice of a used car one can buy. About three years ago one of my neighbors bought a brand new Camry, which cost him at least $30k. Not long after I bought a cherry one owner BMW 335i sedan with only 37,000 miles on it. The car literally looked brand new inside and out, had always been dealer maintained, had already had the major issues addressed that are typically a problem with that chassis, etc. I got the car for $12,750. When I brought it home, he oooed and awwwed about how nice the car was, and how he wished he could have afforded something more like that than his Camry. He then asked me what it cost. I asked him three times if he was sure I wanted to tell him, and I felt terrible telling him, because he looked like he swallowed a bumble bee. He was incredulous and I'm not even sure he truly believed me. He unfortunately has absolutely no idea what type of value is buried in the used car market, where to look for it, or what type of shovel to use to unearth it. It's certainly not in a car manufacturer's interest to educate him. Much of the desire for a new car certainly stems from the insatiable, 'must have the shiny new thing' sentiment.
I understand that people need a warranty in many cases, particularly those who have no mechanical ability. That said, there are many new cars that now come with lengthy powertrain warranties that would cover a used cars for quite a few years, and many of these dealerships like CarMax offer legit extended warranties at a reasonable price. That said, what's the real likelihood of a three year old Honda Accord having a multi-thousand dollar mechanical issue? I haven't kept up with those cars, but at one point I would have laughed my *** off if anyone even suggested that happening on a regular basis, as they were bulletproof. Along those lines, some of the new online auto sellers may be possibly moving the needle a bit with used cars. Carvana, Vroom, etc. have made a strong push towards opening average Joe's eyes to the fact that you can get a really nice used car with minimal effort. The lease thing surely makes sense for a lot of people though.
Sorry for digressing!
These cars will run for 250,000 miles, while the expenses of (rare) significant repairs are typically only a few month’s worth of new car payments. Why people worry about a possible $2500 repair bill rather than a guaranteed $4000 in annual, additional car payments and $10k in depreciation is beyond my understanding. Or leases that guarantee permanent expenses with zero equity in the car, forever... Crazy.
I'll commit to making just one last comment regarding transmission choices with the 997.2. It's exactly that. A choice.
As others have chosen to modify their 997's to suit their preferences - suspension work, PCCB's replacing stock braking systems, cosmetic upgrades / aero kits, wheel mods, you name it.
My comments thus far in defense of the PDK have been made because it is such a great transmission and significantly improves enjoyment and appreciation of the vehicle.
My PDK C2S could easily be converted to a manual transmission car if I wanted to pursue that - and comparatively inexpensively. It's a choice. One however that I have no desire to pursue.
Not a 997.2 of course, but clearly a related scenario...
The 2009 - 2012 Porsches are the ones to have. It's not just my opinion, but a growing sentiment by enthusiasts.
The recipe is quite simple:
- NA Flat Six (without IMS)
- Hydraulic Steering
- Manual/PDK
- Low volume
I think the exterior and interior styling is spot on in this generation. No panamera interior here.
I've also read many articles claiming the 9x7 cars are more engaging, more raw, and more connected than their newer counterparts. This all adds up to a coveted model...at least on paper. (Plenty will appreciate the 9x1 generation more)
At the end of the day, these cars are meant to be driven. Just enjoy the fact that they are some of the best cars that Porsche ever sold, and you are lucky enough to have one!
Having tracked the 997 market for the last few years, I believe that decent ones will probably have relatively little or no depreciation for a while.
Now, compare that to driving a new car off the lot. "The typical new car loses between 40% and 50% of its value within the first five years."
Buy a good one at a good price; drive it; take good care of it; enjoy it; and you might even get a bit of appreciation on what you paid.
I understand that people need a warranty in many cases, particularly those who have no mechanical ability. That said, there are many new cars that now come with lengthy powertrain warranties that would cover a used cars for quite a few years, and many of these dealerships like CarMax offer legit extended warranties at a reasonable price. That said, what's the real likelihood of a three year old Honda Accord having a multi-thousand dollar mechanical issue? I haven't kept up with those cars, but at one point I would have laughed my *** off if anyone even suggested that happening on a regular basis, as they were bulletproof. Along those lines, some of the new online auto sellers may be possibly moving the needle a bit with used cars. Carvana, Vroom, etc. have made a strong push towards opening average Joe's eyes to the fact that you can get a really nice used car with minimal effort. The lease thing surely makes sense for a lot of people though. Sorry for digressing!
I think a lot of car buyers are under the impression that you have to buy a new car or at least a newer car in order to get a warranty. Can't remember if it's 10 or 12 years old or a combination of age and mileage with Fidelity extended warranties but it's not at all beyond reach to buy a 997.2 without a ridiculous amount of miles on it, add a four year Fidelity Platinum warranty and still be close to $50K. Insurance? I pay almost exactly the same amount per year for my -11 GTS as my wife pays for her 2019 Buick Cascada convertible.
I didn't know what that was, so I looked it up. And I mean nothing personal by the following....
How did Buick ever survive 2008...
Your GTS is much nicer.
The used car market is great. Lots of interesting rides out there; not all of them good, but interesting can be good. We're all going to have a drab $40k DD for the SO, but, if you're a 2-car garage, one of them might as well be fun. The wife has made it clear we are not to sell the 997.2. Good.
What are people's thoughts on whether the 'actual cash value' in a normal auto policy, like State Farm, will cover the actual value of our cars? Is anyone going with agreed value insurance policies with the current market?
There appears to be a pretty large discrepancy between that value and market value (For example, I'd estimate base C2 manual market values are around $8k-10k higher than NADA). This is beginning to freak me out because agreed value policies have enough limitations that their policies won't work for my situation (I store the car in a private-access parking garage, which seems to be an excluding factor for Hagerty ). However, if the car is totaled, I would like to be able to purchase another one without going too far out of pocket.
Resale value is great and all, but I want to be able to drive this thing without fear of an accident costing me my opportunity to ever get back into one. Is this just yet another case of pay to play?
02-24-2021, 12:57 PM
What I tend to point out to them is that their $85k Tahoe or Bro Truck was way more money than my 911, which is usually met with perplexed looks.
Most people I know outside of fellow industry folks and 'car friends' have no idea how nice of a used car one can buy. About three years ago one of my neighbors bought a brand new Camry, which cost him at least $30k. Not long after I bought a cherry one owner BMW 335i sedan with only 37,000 miles on it. The car literally looked brand new inside and out, had always been dealer maintained, had already had the major issues addressed that are typically a problem with that chassis, etc. I got the car for $12,750. When I brought it home, he oooed and awwwed about how nice the car was, and how he wished he could have afforded something more like that than his Camry. He then asked me what it cost. I asked him three times if he was sure I wanted to tell him, and I felt terrible telling him, because he looked like he swallowed a bumble bee. 
). However, if the car is totaled, I would like to be able to purchase another one without going too far out of pocket.