Blah blah 997.2 price blah - let's talk about value
#16
Meh. The ad has been up, but my response is usually that I have no interest in letting it go of it unless they need to have absolutely that car and are willing to pay for it. TBH - rennlist is full of tire kickers anyway. I've sold almost all of my cars through craigslist and cargurus and leave the ad up for entertainment.
Also - Hagerty says a concours 09 C2S is worth 55k. I'm pretty sure that if there was a low mileage concours 997.2 around for $55k you'd have a line of 10 people waiting to buy it. I highly doubt they have the granularity to account for all the craziness going on lately.
Similarly, $34.5k for a manual 09 C2S? I'd buy 5 of them right now.
Also - Hagerty says a concours 09 C2S is worth 55k. I'm pretty sure that if there was a low mileage concours 997.2 around for $55k you'd have a line of 10 people waiting to buy it. I highly doubt they have the granularity to account for all the craziness going on lately.
Similarly, $34.5k for a manual 09 C2S? I'd buy 5 of them right now.
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MissileFlyer (03-30-2021)
#17
I think they've now bottomed out and will continue to appreciate. Further I think they will become more desirable than a 993. Not that they will eclipse them price-wise, but they'll get up there. Everyone talks about slamming the door on a 993 and the sound it makes. But in reality the 997 is so much better in every aspect. 993 is charming, yes. Better? No.
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#18
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Destin, Nashville, In a 458 Challenge
I agree prices are going up, but these cars (mass produced - over 76000 made over a 6 year period) are not going to be rare collectables. Maybe decades from now once the bulk of them are wrecked or rotted away, like what happened to the 356's and the air cooled 911's (some of them). But anyone who thinks they are too risky to drive because of collectability value is foolish. This is a little Porsche bubble, and the 997 (and I'll include the .1, thank you) is a great transitional car from the air cooled to the modern water cooled. But again, it'll be years before these cars ever get to stratospheric levels (exceptions of course for some of the limited production specials like GT3 and even some of the turbos).
The cray spike we are seeing is in manual 997.2s and GTS to some degree. The GTS manual is Super rare and NAs 997.2 are pretty dang rare when compared to how many manual 993s were built.
I am not sure why anyone really cares or has feelings about NA 997.2 prices one way or the other, especially if not one. The high price of new 992s also pulls up cars that are desirable like the 997.2 which will continue to be much more desirable the any of the 991s.
I don't see it as a bubble at all. I see it as supply and demand for a special car that are much less plentiful than your post acknowledges.
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#19
Perhaps conjecture, or the amount of consistent posts where people put up PDK cars for sale and the immediate next response is "oh dang, but that's a PDK. If it were a manual it would be in my garage now / worth a zillion more, etc etc".
Oh, $15-20k PDK failures are also now well documented.
Let this not become a PDK vs manual discussion - but the enthusiast consensus is manual cars are more desirable and priced higher across the board.
Oh, $15-20k PDK failures are also now well documented.
Let this not become a PDK vs manual discussion - but the enthusiast consensus is manual cars are more desirable and priced higher across the board.
It's total conjecture - and for anyone reading this that is considering a PDK car - you should recognize it as such.
Well documented PDK failures of any kind well-documented? Really?
I certainly will not attempt shift this discussion to manual vs PDK - but your reference to PDK's in this fashion obscures truth and fact in an (otherwise) interesting thread.
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#20
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but haven't you been trying to sell your 997 Carrera S on RL marketplace for almost a year?
https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1182872
Also, based on auction/dealer sales data, Hagerty reports the 9A1 based 2009 997 Carrera S is basically depreciating slightly. (see att picture)
But good luck with your sale if that's what you truly desire.
https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1182872
Also, based on auction/dealer sales data, Hagerty reports the 9A1 based 2009 997 Carrera S is basically depreciating slightly. (see att picture)
But good luck with your sale if that's what you truly desire.
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#21
I think they've now bottomed out and will continue to appreciate. Further I think they will become more desirable than a 993. Not that they will eclipse them price-wise, but they'll get up there. Everyone talks about slamming the door on a 993 and the sound it makes. But in reality the 997 is so much better in every aspect. 993 is charming, yes. Better? No.
I think the 997 is a great car but for me, the 993 is -better-.
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william123 (03-09-2021)
#22
Good post and interesting observations. I've had/have the following;
2009 Targa 4 (stick)
2009 C4S (PDK)
Currently - 2009 Carrera cab (stick) & 2011 Carrera PDK.
Counterpoint;
I've also had a 991.2 (stick, Carrera). The 997.2 is my favorite modern 911 and I get the hype. However, I've also had a base 981 Boxster (stick), and can attest that it's a much better all-round sports car. Everything apart from the steering feedback, is better (and maybe straight-line performance). If you're bummed you can't get into a 997.2 because the world has finally woken up to them, get a 981 base Cayman or Boxster, preferably in a stick, and enjoy a car which is slightly less visceral (but close) but a substantially better all-around performer. They are at the bottom of their depreciation curve right now.
When the rest of the world learns this in 2-3 years from now, the 981's still start appreciating. The reason I have a 997.2 vs. a 981 currently, is that for me, it's still more aligned to my preferences in that it's more flawed and you have to work around those flaws. The 981 is a flattering sports car and I think possibly the best modern affordable sports car Porsche has made.
2009 Targa 4 (stick)
2009 C4S (PDK)
Currently - 2009 Carrera cab (stick) & 2011 Carrera PDK.
Counterpoint;
I've also had a 991.2 (stick, Carrera). The 997.2 is my favorite modern 911 and I get the hype. However, I've also had a base 981 Boxster (stick), and can attest that it's a much better all-round sports car. Everything apart from the steering feedback, is better (and maybe straight-line performance). If you're bummed you can't get into a 997.2 because the world has finally woken up to them, get a 981 base Cayman or Boxster, preferably in a stick, and enjoy a car which is slightly less visceral (but close) but a substantially better all-around performer. They are at the bottom of their depreciation curve right now.
When the rest of the world learns this in 2-3 years from now, the 981's still start appreciating. The reason I have a 997.2 vs. a 981 currently, is that for me, it's still more aligned to my preferences in that it's more flawed and you have to work around those flaws. The 981 is a flattering sports car and I think possibly the best modern affordable sports car Porsche has made.
Last edited by z3mcoupe; 02-21-2021 at 11:13 AM.
#23
I think one could easily go on and on talking about, of, and through this topic. I'll try to be brief / concise...
To understand, and then perhaps to come to grips with the price and pricing escalation of the 997.2 - I think you need to deconstruct and consider "value" as it's broken into component parts - and view those within the context of enthusiast car purchase options today.
To understand, and then perhaps to come to grips with the price and pricing escalation of the 997.2 - I think you need to deconstruct and consider "value" as it's broken into component parts - and view those within the context of enthusiast car purchase options today.
- No need to dwell on what's happening with current automobile trends - most of what's selling, seen on roads, and being future developed are either SUV's or trucks. The internal combustion engine is rapidly nearing its end (certainly from a development standpoint.) I think more people are looking for something fun / exciting to drive and an option to break away from the SUV / Truck look on the road.
- The average price of a new car (as of January 2021) is just under $41,000. (Try finding something new that you would want to actually drive and own for anywhere near that number...)
- New cars are designed to be (and are certain to become) disposables. Transportation appliances. Toasters.
- Most enthusiast car brands have devalued themselves - either through the changing hands process (Jaguar for example) or because control of the respective company has been handed over to accountants and / or marketing folks (BMW).
- Porsche has committed itself to, and has positioned the 911 over a sustained period of time in a way that virtually no other manufacturer has done with a single car model. It's viewed by many as a (and perhaps the only) truly authentic production sports car.
- The 997.2 has visually aged well over time. (What an understatement - the car looks incredible {no bias there....}).
- The 997.2 is built with quality materials and is durable.
- The 997.2 is a car (that those who have the desire and skills or are willing to develop the skills) that can be worked on at home.
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#24
Great cars tend to appreciate, especially if they were relatively expensive & new when they were first built. That's part of the game- even my first-generation Miata is worth much more than what I paid for it (from a very low base). My brother's '67 911S is worth probably 10x what he paid for it 20 or so years ago. If you're unhappy with appreciation, you could always buy an undesirable car... But I see no reason that these prices are a bubble, unless interest in all cars diminishes (which could happen with a scarcity of gas at some future date I imagine).
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#25
It’s not s bubble until the start going doe again. I almost traded bt 997.2 CS2 for a 991.1 but after driving the 997.2 again i changed by mind. The 997.2 just feels more like a sports car. Even though its a PDK.
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#26
Sad to read the posts and find out my car not worth anything because it’s PDK (coupled with being a cab makes it even less a collector), keeps me from trying to sell it and retire rich. Guess I’ll just have to keep it. Woe is me!
#27
Good post and interesting observations. I've had/have the following;
2009 Targa 4 (stick)
2009 C4S (PDK)
Currently - 2009 Carrera cab (stick) & 2011 Carrera PDK.
Counterpoint;
I've also had a 991.2 (stick, Carrera). The 997.2 is my favorite modern 911 and I get the hype. However, I've also had a base 981 Boxster (stick), and can attest that it's a much better all-round sports car. Everything apart from the steering feedback, is better (and maybe straight-line performance). If you're bummed you can't get into a 997.2 because the world has finally woken up to them, get a 981 base Cayman or Boxster, preferably in a stick, and enjoy a car which is slightly less visceral (but close) but a substantially better around performer. They are at the bottom of their depreciation curve right now.
When the rest of the internet learns this in 2-3 years from now, the 981's still start appreciating. The reason I have a 997.2 vs. a 981 currently, is that for me, it's still more aligned to my preferences in that it's more flawed and you have to work around those flaws. The 981 is a flattering sports car and I think possibly the best modern affordable sports car Porsche has made.
2009 Targa 4 (stick)
2009 C4S (PDK)
Currently - 2009 Carrera cab (stick) & 2011 Carrera PDK.
Counterpoint;
I've also had a 991.2 (stick, Carrera). The 997.2 is my favorite modern 911 and I get the hype. However, I've also had a base 981 Boxster (stick), and can attest that it's a much better all-round sports car. Everything apart from the steering feedback, is better (and maybe straight-line performance). If you're bummed you can't get into a 997.2 because the world has finally woken up to them, get a 981 base Cayman or Boxster, preferably in a stick, and enjoy a car which is slightly less visceral (but close) but a substantially better around performer. They are at the bottom of their depreciation curve right now.
When the rest of the internet learns this in 2-3 years from now, the 981's still start appreciating. The reason I have a 997.2 vs. a 981 currently, is that for me, it's still more aligned to my preferences in that it's more flawed and you have to work around those flaws. The 981 is a flattering sports car and I think possibly the best modern affordable sports car Porsche has made.
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z3mcoupe (02-21-2021)
#28
I think we have to consider this move up in prices has been talked about extensively and predicted for the past 5 - 7 years. These types of market moves on specific sports cars are not normally bubbles like real estate etc. Most times when they go they may finally settle back slightly into the new price zone but will stay at the higher level moving forward. Similar in the past to the 964,.Dino, NSX etc. I think its important to remember this market move is more represented in a certain build of this variant which represents low production numbers. Very low in some cases. Couple that with a design that has held up over the years and is admired by almost all age groups along with a reliable platform and great performance, this begins to make sense. If you want one you better get while the getting is good because they aren't making any more.
#29
Best thing to do is buy the car you want to have long term (instead of stepping stones), put an Agreed Value policy in it that can be adjusted upwards based on market value, drive and enjoy it and forget about value unless it's totalled.
That's what I do and won't sell any of them. My kids can deal with that if there are some they don't want to keep or they can't buy gas 30 years from now.
That's what I do and won't sell any of them. My kids can deal with that if there are some they don't want to keep or they can't buy gas 30 years from now.
#30
Having owned lots of previous Porsche 911 models and followed market closely for 35 years, there is nothing different with 997.1 Vs 997.2 price changes/values/etc from what happened with 911sc Vs 911 Carrera from 1983-1987.
Same body style w/ some HP increase (also eliminated broken headstud problems w/sc engine and different transmission which eliminated the bad syncro issues in the sc models)
The later 1985-1988 Carrera rose in value compared to the 911sc.
You can say the same about the 964 models. 1989-1991 had no engine seals and led to terrible oil leaks. 964 1993-1994 models had added engine seal which corrected the issue and those cars were more sought after/valuable.
Nothin new here - History repeating itself.
Same body style w/ some HP increase (also eliminated broken headstud problems w/sc engine and different transmission which eliminated the bad syncro issues in the sc models)
The later 1985-1988 Carrera rose in value compared to the 911sc.
You can say the same about the 964 models. 1989-1991 had no engine seals and led to terrible oil leaks. 964 1993-1994 models had added engine seal which corrected the issue and those cars were more sought after/valuable.
Nothin new here - History repeating itself.
Last edited by groovzilla; 02-21-2021 at 12:36 PM.
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