hexagone

I'm going to ignore the 997.1 for this post. There's too much variability in people's perception of bore scoring / IMS / melting interior plastics to account for those. Rather, there's a much more consistent desirability factor in 997.2s.

Everyone is talking about *prices* of these cars going up. Yes, the weird tides of folks realizing 997.2s are a gem, with relatively low production, objectively great reliability and a good balance of modernity/analog feel. It's why I've had four of them, and I believe that a base 997.2 is one of the best cars money was able to buy. Moreover, the proliferation of online auction marketplaces, people with money to burn stuck indoors but able to go drive around has had a material factor on the prices of these cars going up.

But there's a difference in price vs. value, and I think the prices these cars are transacting at is ludicrous. Surely it's good for me and my 997.2 C2S DD, and when I picked it up a base carrera with 50k miles could be had for 35k at that time. That same base car is now approaching 50k, and more interesting C2S or 4S are in the 60+ range. I won't even talk about GTSs, because I don't get the 50% price delta over my own car for what objectively feels almost identical. No point even going into that conversation.

When I got my C2S 5 years ago, it was my first 911 and a stretch to buy the best car I could afford at the time. Today, the same aspirational buyer is going to have to settle for a lesser car and/or step down to a .1 or 996 for that. And I think that's unfortunate for those that desire to get into a .2 car, but are seeing cars snatched up fast. Sure it's good for the perceived value of my car, but like much of the other Porsche hype limiting access to what was a much more "reasonable" ownership club of people getting cars to drive, and less to speculate about future values of.

I've had a few air cooled cars, and the amount of dialogue in stratospheric pricing and worshipping their cars with baby diapers is pretty insufferable. It's happening here now, and all the price speculation makes the overall ownership and community experience less enjoyable. I fear in no time there will be a distinct split between 997.2s drivers and curators of objects to look at because they're too nice to risk driving or reducing the value.

It's no different than seeing new money come into neighborhoods of certain cities where existing folks with the privilege of owning there could sell and make a chunk of money, but have no similar alternative to go to because they might be priced out. In that same vein, I could give up my C2S today and say it was a financially good decision - but there's no equal car I would find similar value in for how much I've invested. So I'll drive it to the moon while the "neighborhood" around me changes and newer, more affluent folks move in that I won't be able to relate with.

TL;DR: Pricing moving up for existing 997.2 owners is good, but bad for those trying to get into one for the first time. Folks with much more disposable income driving up prices of cars with less in mind on utility, but collectability. Prices right now too high, and will likely keep going up.

Chris M.

Agreed. Thought I saw a thread where you were going to be selling a 993 C2S.

feta911

[edit] duplicate post

850tgul

Spot on.

As a current owner, I too feel blessed and cursed with the current market. Blessed because the value of my car is going up. Cursed because my next logical move was to a 997 at a $75-80k price point. The cars I would have moved to are now well beyond that.

My current C2 was, initially, going to be a one year experiment to see if the legendary 911 hype was everything it was billed as. I also own a 987.2 and am an admitted Cayman homer so I wasn’t 100% convinced I would like the 911 more than the Cayman.

For these reasons, I didn’t want to spend a ton on a short term experiment 997 so looked for a “cheap” base 6MT 997.2 and found an 80k mile example with a cool spec and pulled the trigger.

If I was bitten by the 911 bug, my plan after the one year was too sell it, and maybe the Cayman, and get a higher tiered 997.2, likely a GTS or .1 GT3.

After owning the 911 for about 3 months, a few things became clear.

One, I don’t think any 911 will ever replace my Cayman. I just love those cars.

Two, I was bitten by the 911 bug too. Very distinct driving experience that just can’t be replicated anywhere else. Back seat means I can take leisurely drives around New England with my small family when we’re feeling couped up during COVID. Can’t put a price on that in these mostly shi**y times.

Three, even since I bought my car a few months ago, the market has gotten even more crazy it seems. The escalating value now means my planned replacement cars are now $100k+ cars when they were $80k a year ago. Even if I did pick up one of those cars, the rising value would make me think twice about piling on the miles. Been there before with a Z4 M Coupe back in the day and it sucks some of the enjoyment out of the ownership experience.

This all led me to the conclusion that I should just keep both cars and drive the hell out of them.

So to all current 997.2 owners, smoke em if you got em.

Ironman88

I think one could easily go on and on talking about, of, and through this topic. I'll try to be brief / concise...

To understand, and then perhaps to come to grips with the price and pricing escalation of the 997.2 - I think you need to deconstruct and consider "value" as it's broken into component parts - and view those within the context of enthusiast car purchase options today.

• No need to dwell on what's happening with current automobile trends - most of what's selling, seen on roads, and being future developed are either SUV's or trucks. The internal combustion engine is rapidly nearing its end (certainly from a development standpoint.) I think more people are looking for something fun / exciting to drive and an option to break away from the SUV / Truck look on the road.
• The average price of a new car (as of January 2021) is just under $41,000. (Try finding something new that you would want to actually drive and own for anywhere near that number...)
• New cars are designed to be (and are certain to become) disposables. Transportation appliances. Toasters.
• Most enthusiast car brands have devalued themselves - either through the changing hands process (Jaguar for example) or because control of the respective company has been handed over to accountants and / or marketing folks (BMW).
• Porsche has committed itself to, and has positioned the 911 over a sustained period of time in a way that virtually no other manufacturer has done with a single car model. It's viewed by many as a (and perhaps the only) truly authentic production sports car.
• The 997.2 has visually aged well over time. (What an understatement - the car looks incredible {no bias there....}).
• The 997.2 is built with quality materials and is durable.
• The 997.2 is a car (that those who have the desire and skills or are willing to develop the skills) that can be worked on at home.

I'm surprised they are not currently selling for more than they are.

linderpat

I agree prices are going up, but these cars (mass produced - over 76000 made over a 6 year period) are not going to be rare collectables. Maybe decades from now once the bulk of them are wrecked or rotted away, like what happened to the 356's and the air cooled 911's (some of them). But anyone who thinks they are too risky to drive because of collectability value is foolish. This is a little Porsche bubble, and the 997 (and I'll include the .1, thank you) is a great transitional car from the air cooled to the modern water cooled. But again, it'll be years before these cars ever get to stratospheric levels (exceptions of course for some of the limited production specials like GT3 and even some of the turbos).

850tgul

No offense to 997.1 owners but I think there is a clear and distinct line between .1s and .2s in terms of desirability/price/value. GT cars excluded. It is what it is.

hexagone

Like I said, the .1 cars are excluded part of this equation because they are just that more variable in nature (many more produced, older, objectively less reliable in the eyes of many, etc).

The .2 accounted for only about 15% of the total 997 run, and with PDK being released many opted to go that route because it was new (and better at the time) technology than tiptronic. In the big scheme of things, sub 10k total production across all 997.2 variants, especially excluding PDK which we are now seeing more and more people shy away from, make the .2 still a relatively rare bird, particularly in manual guise.

Nonetheless - while this looks like a bubble, I will try to explain in my opinion why I think it's not:

When we speak of automotive bubbles, we often reference american classics that were going to the moon in terms of price - but it was a generation of folks that got to an age and income demographic that could afford to relive the cars of those years. And then it popped. The difference in the .2 appreciation (but also including most other Porsches and speciality euro and japanese cars) is that the audience is way broader. Young an old, social media, magazines and hype brands like Period Correct are all vying for attention and using the Porsche brand (and sports/unique cars in general) as a medium for attention. Kids from the 90s that had 993s on their wall can afford them as they've been working for the better part of a decade, and kids from the 2000s that drove porsches in Gran Turismo but cant touch any other Porsches are able to get into (rising) 20-30k 996s to get into the brand experience. I don't see that bubble popping, but I do see it rising - there is just a much bigger worldwide audience interested. We said 5 years ago that the air cooled bubble would burst... nowhere in sight.

If you can, get in now because tomorrow you'll be paying a few bucks more.

bheit1

When I bought my 2011 C2S 6sp coupe CPO, I was told there were only about 100 sold in the US that year. That's out of 849 total 2011 production. There were 2265 GTSs total 2011 production (Porsche 997, The Essential Companion). I would not be surprised if the rarity of the .2 C2S 6sp causes a value parity with the GTS before long. There really isn't a big gap in performance. No one thought the 912s would be worth much either. My under 30 neighbors lust over my car's timeless good looks. They could care less about American Muscle from my generation. I don't think they are the exception to the rule. Seems to me that interest bodes well for future .2 values.

Ironman88

And in asserting this as fact, you're getting your data from where??

Sporty

Look, Porsches are exclusive and I would think we would want to keep it that way whether you want to admit it or not and I don't mean to sound elitist. Look at BMWs now- nice, great cars, arguably performance wise comparable/faster than a 911, but every kid is driving one so its pretty much lost its cache and cool ness factor.

I have a late build basic manual 2005 that I bought new for about $71K(NJ tax included) 15.5 years ago. I have about 42k miles on it with some tasteful modest mods and can probably get low 30's for it now, effectively a 50% residual. Although I am at point where I can pretty much drive whatever I want, it still excites me, i love looking and driving, redlining it and it just feels so nice, smooth. tight and is what I dreamed about as a kid. I have no desire for anything newer even after having driven newer ones, something is missing. Maybe sometime in the future I'll go with a FSI 4.3 460 HP ("what the man said") and/or maybe I will just add a newer one to the stable if it turns me on that much.

Anyway, not sure of the point of this whole thread-you want your 911 to be less exclusive/cool?

hexagone

Perhaps conjecture, or the amount of consistent posts where people put up PDK cars for sale and the immediate next response is "oh dang, but that's a PDK. If it were a manual it would be in my garage now / worth a zillion more, etc etc".

Oh, $15-20k PDK failures are also now well documented.

Let this not become a PDK vs manual discussion - but the enthusiast consensus is manual cars are more desirable and priced higher across the board.

9elvn

It’s an interesting topic and I agree with the OP and the responses, I’ll try and give a sightless different perspective as I just purchased a 997 C4S at I think a fair price given the values.

I happen to flip an asset to make this purchase which made it an very reasonable if not cheap to purchase the 997, I purchased a watch 4 years ago and if you think the 993/997 market is insane check out the AP and PP watch market. So I made about 400% on a watch that I loved but became an obsession when I wore it and just started losing the enjoyment factor, eg I felt uncomfortable wearing it around NYC.

So an opportunity to sell it came up and I had the same thought of what others have said about cars... which watch would I flip to... but in this case I realized I could use a COVID hobby car and started cross shopping 993/997’s ended up picking a 997, because I thought it would be easier to maintain in NYC than a 9973 and it’s a bit more comfortable

so enjoy your things and if you sell them sell them because you want to not because you want to make money is my 2 cents

hexagone

No one arguing about making money, the more power to folks that lucked out. I could do it tomorrow in selling my 997.2.

And then what? I would no longer have a car to enjoy, and to replicate the experience have to add $20-30k based on today's pricing of an equivalent 997.2 or similar model.

That's why I brought up the example of homes - many people from another era that are in extremely desirable neighborhoods that can't afford to buy another home in the area but could probably sell for a lot more than they're into it. But a replacement home might either be 50 miles away or priced 200% more than they've got invested. Therein is a qualitative component of the asset that's hard to put a price on. The condo I bought a few years ago appreciated - which is cool for me I suppose. But I still love the area and there's no way I'd try to replace it with something in the same area because the value is no longer there at market price.

ZuffenZeus

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but haven't you been trying to sell your 997 Carrera S on RL marketplace for almost a year?

https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1182872

Also, based on auction/dealer sales data, Hagerty reports the 9A1 based 2009 997 Carrera S is basically depreciating slightly. (see att picture)

But good luck with your sale if that's what you truly desire.