When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Porsche certainly understands the enthusiast buyer and their connection to manual transmissions. They learned this lesson the hard way with the introduction of the 991 GT3 that was not offered with a MT option. Based on the uproar, the manual option was brought back for the 991.2 GT3. Also, look at some of the super-expensive specialty offerings that were only offered with a MT. The previous 2 generations of Boxster Spyder, the RS 4.0 that essentially became the Touring, the 991 based speedster, etc. Surely, the normal new Carrera buyer has a preference for PDK, but the specialty model new Porsche buyer who is old enough to be affluent enough to buy a $250k car (speedster) grew up with Manuals and still likes and wants them. The second or third hand 911 buyer still wants manuals and that's where the supply and demand issue stems from - the new buyer ordering PDK and more of the used buyers not wanting it.
Bingo and I think the person who buys the 911R, RS 4.0, etc. has the same mindset as the guy who is willing to spend $10k more for a 997.2 6MT rather than settle for a PDK. Same kind of driver, just with different means. Both represent a smaller, but perhaps more die-hard, segment of their respective markets.
Bingo and I think the person who buys the 911R, RS 4.0, etc. has the same mindset as the guy who is willing to spend $10k more for a 997.2 6MT rather than settle for a PDK. Same kind of driver, just with different means. Both represent a smaller, but perhaps more die-hard, segment of their respective markets.
And I would wager that that "guy" you mention with that "mindset" has NEVER even driven a PDK...
Maybe, but I've driven a few PDK cars and it is, by far, the best "automatic" transmission I have ever experienced. I still prefer and was willing to spend more for a 6MT when I was hunting for my 997.2.
total production of 997.2 TT MT 2010-13 is around 488 units give or take... prices are through the roof.
given that... it only makes sense that the MT GTS cars have come up bringing all the rest. I would also say that the non turbo MT .2 cars offer a very visceral experience running through the revs that a lot of people are finding enjoyable to partake and at a reasonable price compared to a brand new car. No one is buying these to commute in... It's about the experience each time you take the car out.
But..... a PDK car is pretty sweet too in certain cases... I live in the city.. and I have to say that until I'm up in CT or out at the tip of Long Island... the stick is a pain trying to meander @20 MPH in traffic. Plus.. a PDK car is much faster on the Turbo (keeps the boost up)...
.2 cars still look modern inside, blue tooth that functions nicely, touch screen, and a working (though non charging) plug in for music.
So I say that all of them offer at whatever pain threshold that you are willing to spend are probably only going to hold value and appreciate over time.
I like this discussion, learning a lot about market forces and the mindset of buyers who define them.
Apologies if my post offended anyone- as it was not my intent.
Because I love the PDK- best automatic transmission built, IMO. It is damn near perfection in my Macan GTS.
Discussing the recent 997.2 MT increase in valuation, by definition, involves the comparing it to the PDK version. I was, apparently unsuccessfully, trying to point out why the 6MT may be commanding higher sales prices compared to a comparable PKD version of the same 997.2. Each owner has their own set of criteria that guides their individual preference- and each is valid, for that owner. The broader 6MT 997.2 market, however, is a varied demographic (though as accurately pointed out, a small niche of total 911 buyers/owners).
I really do not know why the 6MT is highly valued by any individual buyer- and trying to describe my personal preference for it shouldn't be construed as stating "fact" versus my expressing my opinion. Again, not my intent. I am not selling my 6MT GTS in today's market, nor am I particularly enjoying the zero or negative depreciation. It is, however, an interesting discussion (at least to me). Ultimately, valuation threads often spiral into a rabbit hole that eclipses why we own these cars in the first place- because they are a hoot to drive.
Owners of 997's have far more in common than not. The transmission choice is but one of many variable options/features/modifications that are available to us. Each of those options presents a valuation (or not) to the next buyer.
I do value the many viewpoints expressed on the topic- whether I agree with them or not.
My thanks to all who have posted.
In response to Peska914: "That's a heck of a spec on your car. Congtats. The only thing it's missing is PCCBs to be the pinnacle of a street 997."
Yes, PCCB's are certainly another option/valuation that personalize our 997, though I can live with steel brakes, especially with black wheels.
To sandwedge:
I really enjoy reading your posts. What you state about Porsche's marketing and consumer preference is undeniable. I am guilty of beating a dead horse, for sure!
Your PDK operating technique is precisely how I would utilize it. It is obviously superior technology and indispensable if tracking for time, DD use or in heavy stop and go traffic.
You must have loved flying the 9 and MadDog. I never did fly it, but the 727 was comparable technology. The automation in those planes was installed, but rarely superior unless in cruise or on final. I flew the 747 "Classic" (3-man cockpit) for 17 years. Nothing worked below 10,000', no FMS, crummy autothrottles and no autoland. But was a joy to fly (along with the DC-10)- due to the visceral experience of actually manipulating the controls and thrust levers. It was obvious who had "golden hands" and who didn't in those days! My last 8 years was on the A-330. I routinely watched fellow pilots engage the autopilot at 500' on climb-out and then click it off at 200' to land. Crazy changes over my career.
Last edited by Liste-Renn; 02-23-2021 at 06:25 PM.
To be clear, I’ve spent my life in sales and so I speak straight, all the time. I don’t beat around the bush or filter. Believe me, my wife wishes I would sometimes. But when I make comments it is usually not about a specific person, rather just a response to things I’ve read over time. If I am commenting about a specific comment, I always use that person‘s handle. But I tend not to speak about specific people, just comments in general. Also, for what it’s worth, I personally am a huge fan of manual transmissions and all of my previous sports cars have always been manual transmission. My race car is also manual transmission, but when I bought my GTS there was no manual available in the over year period that I was looking, so I bit the bullet. Certainly there are times when the manual transmission would be more fun, but I do daily drive my dream cars including this one, and both race and instruct on track including Circuit of the Americas in Austin, so I have really come to appreciate how much faster a car with PDK is than one with an old school manual. I just get annoyed when some people want to present their personal opinion as facts, and suggest that they apply to everybody, because when it comes to subjective conversations, we are all entitled to express our opinions, but they are just that - our opinions. And not facts as some would have us all believe. And Sandwedge, I've been a big fan of your point of view for years. I can’t tell you how many times I wanted to give a big thumbs up to your views in the 992 forum, but figured you were speaking enough for the rest of us!
Last edited by ThomasCarreraGTS; 02-24-2021 at 07:04 PM.
I'll commit to making just one last comment regarding transmission choices with the 997.2. It's exactly that. A choice.
As others have chosen to modify their 997's to suit their preferences - suspension work, PCCB's replacing stock braking systems, cosmetic upgrades / aero kits, wheel mods, you name it.
My comments thus far in defense of the PDK have been made because it is such a great transmission and significantly improves enjoyment and appreciation of the vehicle.
My PDK C2S could easily be converted to a manual transmission car if I wanted to pursue that - and comparatively inexpensively. It's a choice. One however that I have no desire to pursue.
My apologies for apparently turning a great discussion on 997.2 values into a transmission discussion. My original post was tongue in cheek. My 911 is first 2 pedal car in many years (decades and I won’t say how many lol), but for reasons not having to do with performance but driving conditions. Love my PDK? Yes, but when I get add a coupe I’ll prefer a manual just cause. If find “the deal” on coupe or turbo with PDK I’ll buy cause I love the 997.2 generation, both transmissions are great. I don’t care if value going up/down on my 911, never selling. Won’t care if coupe/turbo I find goes up/down, will never sell.
Bottom line, think manual vs PDK arguments/dissing should end, 911’s with either are great cars and none of us are better owning one or the other. Discussions on pricing of both have value and limited manual inventory will probably always price higher due to supply/demand.
Maybe, but I've driven a few PDK cars and it is, by far, the best "automatic" transmission I have ever experienced. I still prefer and was willing to spend more for a 6MT when I was hunting for my 997.2.
Maybe because it's not an automatic transmission in terms of mechanics. The only thing it has in common with an old fashioned automatic is that it can be driven like one. Other than that it's a manual transmission without the third pedal. No torque converter to be found in a PDK. You probably know this but a lot of people still seem to think the PDK is just a modern next generation or whatever of a traditional automatic.
Yeah, the dealerships are NOT crying for manuals, If manual transmissions were favored in the 911, they would be ordered that way and Porsche would build them that way. Contrary to what some people think, Porsche does NOT build what it wants without regard to the market, they do in fact build what the market demands.
Simple as that. I admit to not understanding why this topic is still being discussed here on a regular basis.
Originally Posted by 850tgul
I don't think any reasonable person is denying, or blaming, Porsche for building more PDK cars than manuals. They're not stupid and they know what sells. Nor is anyone really arguing the manual transmission is objectively "better" than the PDK. I do think, however, that when we talk about a ~10 year old car on the used market, it's hard to deny that an apples to apples 6MT 997.2 isn't worth more than its PDK counterpart to the right buyer (crazy car nuts like us). Supply and demand is certainly a part of it, lower production numbers for 6MT, etc. The fact that there are fewer and fewer manuals are offered in the new cars actually helps drive up the values of the old manual cars, I would think.
Manuals only drives up prices to a smaller and smaller pool of "has to be a manual" buyers.
Strictly an imaginary scenario. Put 25 997.2's on a parking lot. 20 PDK's and 5 manuals. Similar mileage and the most popular colors. Then invite let's say 50 individuals who in one way or another have shown interest in buying a 997.2 and have them submit a non binding offer on any of those 25 cars. Just to see how this broad spectrum of potential buyers value manuals vs. PDK. I may well be wrong but I'd be surprised if the manuals gathered a premium over the PDK cars from what should be a good representation of the marketplace as a whole.
Originally Posted by Liste-Renn
To sandwedge: You must have loved flying the 9 and MadDog. I never did fly it, but the 727 was comparable technology. The automation in those planes was installed, but rarely superior unless in cruise or on final. I flew the 747 "Classic" (3-man cockpit) for 17 years. Nothing worked below 10,000', no FMS, crummy autothrottles and no autoland. But was a joy to fly (along with the DC-10)- due to the visceral experience of actually manipulating the controls and thrust levers. It was obvious who had "golden hands" and who didn't in those days! My last 8 years was on the A-330. I routinely watched fellow pilots engage the autopilot at 500' on climb-out and then click it off at 200' to land. Crazy changes over my career.
You're right. Loved the DC-9 series that ended up with the MadDog. Flew all versions they built except the -20 which was basically a -10 with -30 wings and engines. A rocket ordered and built for SAS for short runways at high altitude. I think Swissair bought some of them too. Can's beat the power and performance of the MadDog but my favorite to hand fly was the -30 without comparison. Everything about it was just right. The shorter -10 and longer -40 and -50 versions or the MD-80 didn't have close to the same feeling of harmony. Other than that, didn't realize the classic 747's had that many shortfalls below 10,000. Still wish I would have gotten some time in it though.
I mostly agree with sandwedge's opinion expressed above.
But the obvious fact he is not mentioning is this: Porsche has continued to offer a manual transmission option, despite the PDK being "superior" in any objective sense.
Why are the 911R, the 991.2 GTS/RS and 991.2 Speedster available with a new, improved 6MT, when the PDK is "superior" in every measurable way?
Simple: Driving a 911 is not an objective experience. If not on a track striving for best lap times, the cognitive demand requirement of a manual transmission is a positive factor in driver engagement and contributes to operator satisfaction. Manually manipulating a machine well is its own reward.
"Flying" a modern aircraft is essentially monitoring the autopilot/autothrust systems. Turning off the "magic" is actually where the fun of flying begins. Manipulating the thrust levers and actuating the flight controls is a visceral experience, which can be duplicated and often improved by automation, but that requires surrendering control of a machine and becoming a monitor. No one takes pride in a smooth autoland. A manual (hand-flown) approach to a precise touchdown in strong gusty crosswinds, on center line and without any crab into the wind is one of the great satisfactions in aviation.
Devoting a portion of one's brain to heel and toe rev-matching, while also planning/executing gear selection to match power demand is huge part of the driving experience craved/appreciated by "hardcore" or "old school" 911 aficionados.
The TipTronic auto was reviled by most 911 drivers- tolerated, at best. While the PDK is an improvement for anyone tracking, daily driving in traffic, or unable/unwilling to operate a clutch, the valuations do not reflect a preference for it.
Asserting that the 80/20 (PDK favorable) split on 997 builds somehow bestows a desirability factor in today's market is not accurate - that was then and the current market valuation of manual transmissions is today's reality. Manual transmissions are in greater demand, and maybe command a price premium because the heritage, history and soul of the 911 is intrinsically linked to that gearbox. "Progress" has not, at least in the 997.2/991.2/992 GTS/RS, 911R and 991 Speedster, supplanted the manual transmission with a PDK. On the contrary, a 6MT is either an option or a mandatory choice in those enthusiast 911 models.
The 997.2 is, arguably, the "last' of the analogue 911s. While the 993 marked the end of the air-cooled era, the 991 heralded a major shift in the development philosophy of the 911- lengthened wheelbase, e-steering, e-parking brake, auto rev-matching, RWS, etc., etc. The 997 sits between those evolutions- to the delight of the owners.
I feel fortunate to drive the crap out of my 997 GTS with a 6MT, RWD, hydro-mechanical steering, mechanical LSD, ratcheting handbrake, N/A engine- coupled with a semi-modern interior: Bose sound system, Adaptive Sport Seats, PDLS headlights, Sat Radio, Bluetooth phone, PASM, PSM and the bulletproof (so far) 9A1 direct injected engine with the X51 power option. While surprised by the recent GTS valuation spike, I have always valued the visceral experience, regardless of shifting market value.
Seems to me that the 997 MT valuations reflects a continuing appreciation for a 911 with a transmission that rewards driver involvement, aptitude and commitment combined with the satisfaction associated with mastering a machine that requires all four limbs and a more substantial portion of one's brain to accomplish.
I mostly see it the exact same way with your last sentence capturing, as well as I've ever seen it stated, the feelings i have for the MT not only in a Porsche...but any car I've ever driven over the last 50 plus years!!
I agree the Manual Transmission Vs Tiptronic/PDK is a pointless argument.
Just like music, to each his own. I just enjoy teasing those who completely lose it defending Auto T.
I've always been a Porsche Manual Transmission lover and always will be. BUT I have SUV as daily driver that is automatic and couldn't have it any other way.
I use Porsche for occasional drives and getaways. If I was using it more often and daily driving, Automatic transmission would probably be more appealing but That will never happen.
Manuals only drives up prices to a smaller and smaller pool of "has to be a manual" buyers.
Strictly an imaginary scenario. Put 25 997.2's on a parking lot. 20 PDK's and 5 manuals. Similar mileage and the most popular colors. Then invite let's say 50 individuals who in one way or another have shown interest in buying a 997.2 and have them submit a non binding offer on any of those 25 cars. Just to see how this broad spectrum of potential buyers value manuals vs. PDK. I may well be wrong but I'd be surprised if the manuals gathered a premium over the PDK cars from what should be a good representation of the marketplace as a whole.
.
This would be an intriguing study. Sadly, its simplicity makes it pretty useless and indefensible statistically. But many “truths” are and have been based on bad statistics so maybe you’re on to something. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics, Ya’ know.
Strictly an imaginary scenario. Put 25 997.2's on a parking lot. 20 PDK's and 5 manuals. Similar mileage and the most popular colors. Then invite let's say 50 individuals who in one way or another have shown interest in buying a 997.2 and have them submit a non binding offer on any of those 25 cars. Just to see how this broad spectrum of potential buyers value manuals vs. PDK. I may well be wrong but I'd be surprised if the manuals gathered a premium over the PDK cars from what should be a good representation of the marketplace as a whole.
.
Don't invite me then. I'd only go to the section with the 5 manual cars, eliminating the others, just as I do in my online searches. However, I'd also get there early with a truck full of diagnostic equipment like smoke machine cooling system pressure tested, durametric to have done a quick PPI on any of the 5 I was actually interested in before the bidding started. I'd also eliminate any cars that didn't have full leather or PCCB brakes. Might not be one in the lot for me
Having owned lots of previous Porsche 911 models and followed market closely for 35 years, there is nothing different with 997.1 Vs 997.2 price changes/values/etc from what happened with 911sc Vs 911 Carrera from 1983-1987.
Same body style w/ some HP increase (also eliminated broken headstud problems w/sc engine and different transmission which eliminated the bad syncro issues in the sc models)
The later 1985-1988 Carrera rose in value compared to the 911sc.
You can say the same about the 964 models. 1989-1991 had no engine seals and led to terrible oil leaks. 964 1993-1994 models had added engine seal which corrected the issue and those cars were more sought after/valuable.
Nothin new here - History repeating itself.
Essentially, I agree with the gist of your post, @groovzilla . Seeing rising prices for desirable cars is nothing new, and the 'pecking order' of 911 desirability is nothing new, either. When I was in school, I wanted a 964 sooo badly and they were so cheap I couldn't believe it...didn't matter as I couldn't afford 25k for a car then. Now that I have the money, they are 3x that. Oh well. Perhaps I'll get one eventually, perhaps not. I guess I don't see the value in lamenting these sort of normal market forces at work. I don't mean this to be confrontational, but there will always be some people that are the 'reasonable ownership club' that @hexagone seems to refer to, and there will be speculators and yes, some people will obsess over mileage on cars rather than enjoyment of use, and the % of people doing so is likely to increase as values of such an asset do as well. I also don't agree with the gentrification analogy, but that's mostly because in gentrification an area typically becomes more developed in a way that is perceived to have more value - typically with improvements to structures, performed by new buyers etc - whereas in this case the asset is unchanged but the value increases due solely to scarcity and a change in the appreciation for a product when compared to the other offerings on the market. I see your point but at least that is a distinction I see.
Don't get me wrong - I am happy and feel lucky that I have a 997.2 and I have no plans to sell. I hope to teach my son (who is only 3 months old!) to drive this car in 15 years. I have used it as a dd for nearly 2 years (this July) and it has been fantastic. I drove 996s, 997.1s, and 991s and, like many here, I think it represents a real sweet spot in compromises between old and new; I guess I'm not surprised that they are trading for more now than they were, as I thought they were undervalued for awhile. I think this board is awesome and I've learned a ton from the members here. If these cars continue to increase in value, I guess I don't see the value in lamenting the possibility of the changes in how someone else wishes to treat their car - I'll be too busy continuing to enjoy mine and pile on the miles. Just my $.02
02-23-2021, 11:17 AM
