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Manual transmissions are, as @sandwedge also commented on recently, far less popular with buyers, far worse performing in ALL measurables including 0-60 MPH and Lap Times (Porsche won't even use anything other than PDK in it's top of the line, fastest and most hardcore performance models.) The reason that CURRENTLY manual transmissions are selling for more, is only because so far fewer were produced, and with so few being offered by any manufacturer, including Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and all the rest, there is a rush from those who do want a manual, to fight over the relatively small numbers of units made available for sale. Simple supply and demand,
A modified car is worth less to dealers and the majority of buyers. You may enjoy modifications, as clearly many on this forum do, but that does not translate to the big picture, and does not change the facts. A fellow former automotive industry guy, Ed Bolian, has even made a video about this subject, as have others.
Yeah, bring on the hate mail.
No hate from me. I agree with all of it except maybe the lowering. Good roads where I live and no hills and few steep driveways. Yes, I do get some occasional scrapes on the front lip but it's easily fixed with some wet sanding and a bottle of black satin spray paint. And to me, that 1.25mm drop makes a big difference in the stance and overall appearance of the car. But to each their own and of course, the roads, driveways etc. makes a difference. Basically a non issue for me.
For the endless PDK/Manual arguments, as I've said repeatedly - and I stand by this opinion of mine - that the PDK created two separate markets for 997's and later models. Manual 997's aren't selling for more money than PDK's because manuals are more desirable by a majority of buyers. The manuals sell for more (sometimes) because so few were built after the PDK was introduced that the few manuals that come on the market basically create a price war between the few buyers who must have a manual.
As you say, it's a simple supply and demand issue. This is a different kind of supply and demand issue though. Typically, supply and demand refers to something in high demand not built in high enough numbers for a large number of buyers wanting the same thing. That seems to be reversed here. Porsche has built 997's, 991's and 992's at an 80% to 20% ratio in favor of the PDK for 14 years now. I've even seen 90% vs.10% figures by some reports. So again, a very small number of Porsche buyers are fighting and outbidding each other over cars that Porsche has stopped just short of even building because of a general lack of demand.
Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari and every car maker builds what the dealerships around the world are asking for based on what their customers are asking for. The fact that Porsche has built 80% or 90% PDK cars for 14 years now speaks for itself. Never mind that both Ferrari and Lamborghini stopped producing manual cars years ago due to lack of demand. You can't buy a manual Ferrari or Lambo anymore no matter how much money you're offering them.
Lastly, as for a modified car, if you have tasteful car with high end mods (who decides what tasteful is ), you may luck out and find a buyer who wants exactly what you've done. As posted previously, I had my GTS on the market about two years ago as I recall it. I got plenty of inquires and I would say that 99% of them asked if I had the stock wheels and if I had the stock seats. So a set of $7,000 Forgeline wheels and a set of $10,000 Porsche OEM carbon GT2 bucket seats actually decreased the value of my car. Took it off the market after all those absurd discussions.
[QUOTE=Liste-Renn;18400317The Porsche North Houston Aqua Blue and the eBay Silver/Lobster cars are unsold at $92K and $95K as of today.[/QUOTE]
Did somebody on the forum buy the Aqua Blue car? I was going to fly to Houston last week to look at it and it was in the process of being sold.
It's turning into a which oil thread. Rabbit hunting season, no duck hinting season. Now Fire!
Originally Posted by Liste-Renn
I think your car has 380 HP, while the Spyder above has 414.
A bigger power differential than a 997.2 S to a GTS.
The X51 package cost $17K for a 23 HP gain.
My Boxster is actually rated at 330 hp, so quite a bit lower Than either the Spyder or my 997. The equalizer is it's PDK. That's right, I said it, the PDK! It makes it about as fast as my 997 GTS because of the shifting speed. It also beats my buddy's 485hp Challenger Scat Pack. That thing can't get out of it's own way. I love that car. It's quick, nimble, and makes me a better driver than I really am. It's a total blast, plus well, my wife can drive it.
With all that being said, my 6 speed GTS is simply more fun to drive. It's more engaging and visceral. The sound, the feel, steering, rev matching. It's what to me, a child of the 80's, a sports car should be. It's analog through and through except the dated digital display part. It's rough and bumpy, makes me work to drive it but rewarding when I do things right. When I want to drive, I take the 911. When I want to cruise, I take the Boxster. Every time I drive the 911, I say to myself, yep, that's the better car.
My daily is a 2020 Chevy Express van. The antithesis of a 6 speed GTS except the rough and loud part. That is the most unrewarding vehicle you could drive. I put about 25,000 miles a year on that thing. Boring!
According to this chart (I believe compiled by Body In White), the proportion of manual and PDK is not as skewed as you state, with exception of 4 GTS Cabs:
Of the total 1,500 US GTS cars, 64% were PDK. For the 997 generation, Porsche recognized a shift in transmission take rates but it is not as extreme as today's market. The general premium that manuals get over PDK is a bit of supply/demand but also desirability. The data shows this. It doesn't mean one is better than the other so let's drop the debate and let the dead horse go to rest once and for all.
Originally Posted by sandwedge
No hate from me. I agree with all of it except maybe the lowering. Good roads where I live and no hills and few steep driveways. Yes, I do get some occasional scrapes on the front lip but it's easily fixed with some wet sanding and a bottle of black satin spray paint. And to me, that 1.25mm drop makes a big difference in the stance and overall appearance of the car. But to each their own and of course, the roads, driveways etc. makes a difference. Basically a non issue for me.
For the endless PDK/Manual arguments, as I've said repeatedly - and I stand by this opinion of mine - that the PDK created two separate markets for 997's and later models. Manual 997's aren't selling for more money than PDK's because manuals are more desirable by a majority of buyers. The manuals sell for more (sometimes) because so few were built after the PDK was introduced that the few manuals that come on the market basically create a price war between the few buyers who must have a manual.
As you say, it's a simple supply and demand issue. This is a different kind of supply and demand issue though. Typically, supply and demand refers to something in high demand not built in high enough numbers for a large number of buyers wanting the same thing. That seems to be reversed here. Porsche has built 997's, 991's and 992's at an 80% to 20% ratio in favor of the PDK for 14 years now. I've even seen 90% vs.10% figures by some reports. So again, a very small number of Porsche buyers are fighting and outbidding each other over cars that Porsche has stopped just short of even building because of a general lack of demand.
Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari and every car maker builds what the dealerships around the world are asking for based on what their customers are asking for. The fact that Porsche has built 80% or 90% PDK cars for 14 years now speaks for itself. Never mind that both Ferrari and Lamborghini stopped producing manual cars years ago due to lack of demand. You can't buy a manual Ferrari or Lambo anymore no matter how much money you're offering them.
Lastly, as for a modified car, if you have tasteful car with high end mods (who decides what tasteful is ), you may luck out and find a buyer who wants exactly what you've done. As posted previously, I had my GTS on the market about two years ago as I recall it. I got plenty of inquires and I would say that 99% of them asked if I had the stock wheels and if I had the stock seats. So a set of $7,000 Forgeline wheels and a set of $10,000 Porsche OEM carbon GT2 bucket seats actually decreased the value of my car. Took it off the market after all those absurd discussions.
...agreed. It's not really a useful debate. But I would like to lament how hard it's been to find a car with full leather interior + alcantara seats. 🙃
Whoa, fellas.
I am not instigating further 6MT/PDK debate- "useful" or not.
Thomas: Relax, man. No "hate" is being felt. I CLEARLY stated that those mods were "...no brainers, IMO." I am not trying to convince you, or anyone else, of anything. Just stating my opinion. As you have stated yours. All good.
I own a 2018 Macan GTS with PDK. It is a marvelous transmission in that vehicle. Flawless/lightening fast automatic shifts in SPORT+...as long as you signal to the software clearly whether an up or down shift is desired (by even the slightest contact with the brake or accelerator pedal). Or just driving aggressively- with braking required prior to every corner and accelerating on the exit. Rowing gears is it's own reward, IMO. Shifting a PDK with the paddles or stick is fun, especially with auto rev matching- but not as engaging as a MT, IMO.
This holds true for the newer 911 GTS models, as well. (And to some extent to the GT cars- with the lone exception of the PDK-only 991.1 GT3). Read this review of a 992 GTS for a more eloquent explanation: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
sandwedge reports that he drives mostly in SPORT+ and manually shifts with the stick. I've tried that in the Macan, but find it takes far more concentration than manually shifting to maintain the optimum power band and gear selection on mountain roads. But that's just me. The PDK shines in auto mode, otherwise, I prefer a manual if I am selecting the gears.
Your obvious expertise in resale values of modded cars is totally valid for dealer trade-in and many used car purchases- but it's not necessarily germane to the 997 GTS market, IMO. The data shows otherwise- at least on the BaT and PCARMarket auction sites.
Re: PSE with Sharkwerks mod
The OEM PSE, even in SPORT mode, is barely audible inside the cockpit with windows up and sunroof closed.
In NORMAL (or OFF) the exhaust note is totally MIA. I own one, and did the center muffler delete after finding it unheard, unfulfilling and contrary to what I wanted to hear above 4500 RPM. YMMV, and obviously does! Might be (surely) a different story in a Cab, but I like to actually hear the exhaust between 4500 and 7500 RPM. A Sharky with PSE is the same volume in NORMAL as the OEM in SPORT. With SPORT selected, the exhaust note is audible inside. Isn't that the entire point of a sport exhaust? WIth PSE switch functionality, one has the best of both worlds. Docile and low profile or screaming like a flat-6. It is a Porsche engine creating the sound, it is not being choked by a heavy center muffler that obviously is there to comply with Euro and US DOT noise standards. Why does Akrapovič exist?
Same concept with the DSC box mod. The car simply handles and rides better than the OEM PASM. More control and more compliant on rough or undulating road surfaces, especially mid corner under braking or accelerating while traversing uneven pavement. It is just better, in every way, IMO. YMMV, and surely does!
mrrdster: When I posted that update, your car had not sold, and was still listed on eBay. The fact that it sold after my post does not make it inaccurate, only dated.
sandwedge: Enough on the PDK not being available on other high end sports cars. This thread topic is 997 GTS cars for sale, not Ferraris. Lambos, nor McLarens. The market for 997 GTS cars is not the 997 market at large. Never was, in fact. Few buy one to race competitively, with Nate (nwGTS) a notable exception. The totally transparent auction site sale prices are data, not opinion. They confirm that a 997 6MT RWD Coupe, in most cases, has traded at a premium to a similar PDK, Cab or AWD version.
anewman: I agree with you, not Thomas, that a 6MT on a 997 GTS is more fun to drive than a PDK. No, not in traffic. No, not on a track if one is looking for the best lap time. But I live for the experience, not the convenience or best lap time. There is a reason Porsche offers ONLY a 6MT in the 997 Sport Classic, 991 Speedster and 911R. Those cars are not marketed as track weapons, nor commuter vehicles. They are built to scratch the itch of visceral, fun, real road driving. Buyers pay a premium for them for a reason.
prariedawg: Your explanation nailed it.
Busta: I've seen the data table- it is awesome (kudos to Body In White)... and with raw data- not conjecture or opinion- reflects that the 997 GTS resale market is not a case of fewer buyers chasing fewer 6MT cars. Owners with 6MT RWD Coupes are holding on to them. There are fewer for sale than the PDK/Cab/AWD versions- far out of proportion to the version split percentages in the table. I don't follow the 997 market at large, but my casual observation reflects the same phenomenon in all 997 6MT RWD Coupes- not just the GTS versions that this thread is based on.
The histrionic complaining about me putting down someone else's preferences in a transmission is silly.
Dead horses will continue to be flogged- which can be amusing if one reads this forum for entertainment and not confirmation bias that our own model is somehow superior.
I certainly do not presume to know what any of you fellow 997 GTS owners desire, appreciate or value.
No offense intended, nor inferred.
Enjoy your cars, gentleman.
Last edited by Liste-Renn; 10-17-2022 at 02:44 PM.
Reason: Grammatical corrections.
Everyone just chill.
PDK is good, not better.
Manual is good, not better.
997 GTS is good, not better.
We are all good, not better.
The fact that you had to clarify the obvious demonstrates how ridonkulous RL can be at times.
Originally Posted by Liste-Renn
Whoa, fellas.
I am not instigating further 6MT/PDK debate- "useful" or not.
Thomas: Relax, man. No "hate" is being felt. I CLEARLY stated that those mods were "...no brainers, IMO." I am not trying to convince you, or anyone else, of anything. Just stating my opinion. As you have stated yours. All good.
I own a 2018 Macan GTS with PDK. It is a marvelous transmission in that vehicle. Flawless/lightening fast automatic shifts in SPORT+...as long as you signal to the software clearly whether an up or down shift is desired (by even the slightest contact with the brake or accelerator pedal). Or just driving aggressively- with braking required prior to every corner and accelerating on the exit. Rowing gears is it's own reward, IMO. Shifting a PDK with the paddles or stick is fun, especially with auto rev matching- but not as engaging as a MT, IMO.
This holds true for the newer 911 GTS models, as well. (And to some extent to the GT cars- with the lone exception of the PDK-only 991.1 GT3). Read this review of a 992 GTS for a more eloquent explanation: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
sandwedge reports that he drives mostly in SPORT+ and manually shifts with the stick. I've tried that in the Macan, but find it takes far more concentration than manually shifting to maintain the optimum power band and gear selection on mountain roads. But that's just me. The PDK shines in auto mode, otherwise, I prefer a manual if I am selecting the gears.
Your obvious expertise in resale values of modded cars is totally valid for dealer trade-in and many used car purchases- but it's not necessarily germane to the 997 GTS market, IMO. The data shows otherwise- at least on the BaT and PCARMarket auction sites.
Re; PSE with Sharkwerks mod
The OEM PSE, even in SPORT mode, is barely audible inside the cockpit with windows up and sunroof closed.
In NORMAL (or OFF) the exhaust note is totally MIA. I own one, and did the center muffler delete after finding it unheard, unfulfilling and contrary to what I wanted to hear above 4500 RPM. YMMV, and obviously does! Might be (surely) a different story in a Cab, but I like to actually hear the exhaust between 4500 and 7500 RPM. A Sharky with PSE is the same volume in NORMAL as the OEM in SPORT. With SPORT selected, the exhaust note is audible inside. Isn't that the entire point of a sport exhaust? WIth PSE switch functionality, one has the best of both worlds. Docile and low profile or screaming like a flat-6. It is a POrsche engine creating the sound, it is not being choked by a heavy center muffler that obviously is there to comply with Euro and US DOT noise standards. Why does Akrapovič exist?
Same concept with the DSC box mod. The car simply handles and rides better than the OEM PASM. More control and more compliant on rough or undulating road surfaces, especially mid corner under braking or accelerating while traversing uneven pavement. It is just better, in every way, IMO. YMMV, and surely does!
mrrdster: When I posted that update, your car had not sold, and was still listed on eBay. The fact that it sold after my post does not make it inaccurate, only dated.
sandwedge: Enough on the PDK not being available on other high end sports cars. This thread topic is 997 GTS cars for sale, not Ferraris. Lambos, nor McLarens. The market for 997 GTS cars is not the 997 market at large. Never was, in fact. Few buy one to race competitively, with Nate (nwGTS) a notable exception. The totally transparent auction site sale prices are data, not opinion. They confirm that a 997 6MT RWD Coupe, in most cases, has traded at a premium to a similar PDK, Cab or AWD version.
anewman: I agree with you, not Thomas, that a 6MT on a 997 GTS is more fun to drive than a PDK. No, not in traffic. No, not on a track if one is looking for the best lap time. But I live for the experience, not the convenience or best lap time. There is a reason Porsche offers ONLY a 6MT in the 997 Sport Classic, 991 Speedster and 911R were only offered with a 6MT. Those cars are not marketed as track weapons, nor commuter vehicles. They are built to scratch the itch of visceral, fun, real road driving. Buyers pay a premium for them for a reason.
prariedawg: Your explanation nailed it.
Busta: I've seen the data table- it is awesome (kudos to Body In White)... and with raw data- not conjecture or opinion- reflects that the 997 GTS resale market is not a case of fewer buyers chasing fewer 6MT cars. Owners with 6MT RWD Coupes are holding on to them. There are fewer for sale than the PDK/Cab/AWD versions- far out of proportion to the version split percentages in the table. I don't follow the 997 market at large, but my casual observation reflects the same phenomenon in all 997 6MT RWD Coupes- not just the GTS versions that this thread is based on.
The histrionic complaining about me putting down someone else's preferences in a transmission is silly.
Dead horses will continue to be flogged- which can be amusing if one reads this forum for entertainment and not confirmation bias that our own model is somehow superior.
I certainly do not presume to know what any of you fellow 997 GTS owners desire, appreciate or value.
No offense intended, nor inferred.
No need to apologize. I'm picking up what you're laying down. It's all good. Total non sequitur: I am so close to putting my GTS up for sale (seriously, not serious). Only because I am tempted by this cool 997.1 GT3 project up for bid on Pcar: https://www.pcarmarket.com/auction/2...sche-911-gt3-6
Unlike most prospective buyers, I would not be averse to this modified beast. It hits the right notes for me. Carry on.
Originally Posted by Liste-Renn
Sorry, brevity is not my strong suit- not that I even have one.
[QUOTE=Liste-Renn;18414954]Whoa, fellas.
I am not instigating further 6MT/PDK debate- "useful" or not.
Thomas: Relax, man. No "hate" is being felt. I CLEARLY stated that those mods were "...no brainers, IMO." I am not trying to convince you, or anyone else, of anything. Just stating my opinion. As you have stated yours. All good.
I own a 2018 Macan GTS with PDK. It is a marvelous transmission in that vehicle. Flawless/lightening fast automatic shifts in SPORT+...as long as you signal to the software clearly whether an up or down shift is desired (by even the slightest contact with the brake or accelerator pedal). Or just driving aggressively- with braking required prior to every corner and accelerating on the exit. Rowing gears is it's own reward, IMO. Shifting a PDK with the paddles or stick is fun, especially with auto rev matching- but not as engaging as a MT, IMO.
This holds true for the newer 911 GTS models, as well. (And to some extent to the GT cars- with the lone exception of the PDK-only 991.1 GT3). Read this review of a 992 GTS for a more eloquent explanation: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
sandwedge reports that he drives mostly in SPORT+ and manually shifts with the stick. I've tried that in the Macan, but find it takes far more concentration than manually shifting to maintain the optimum power band and gear selection on mountain roads. But that's just me. The PDK shines in auto mode, otherwise, I prefer a manual if I am selecting the gears.
Your obvious expertise in resale values of modded cars is totally valid for dealer trade-in and many used car purchases- but it's not necessarily germane to the 997 GTS market, IMO. The data shows otherwise- at least on the BaT and PCARMarket auction sites.
Re: PSE with Sharkwerks mod
The OEM PSE, even in SPORT mode, is barely audible inside the cockpit with windows up and sunroof closed.
In NORMAL (or OFF) the exhaust note is totally MIA. I own one, and did the center muffler delete after finding it unheard, unfulfilling and contrary to what I wanted to hear above 4500 RPM. YMMV, and obviously does! Might be (surely) a different story in a Cab, but I like to actually hear the exhaust between 4500 and 7500 RPM. A Sharky with PSE is the same volume in NORMAL as the OEM in SPORT. With SPORT selected, the exhaust note is audible inside. Isn't that the entire point of a sport exhaust? WIth PSE switch functionality, one has the best of both worlds. Docile and low profile or screaming like a flat-6. It is a Porsche engine creating the sound, it is not being choked by a heavy center muffler that obviously is there to comply with Euro and US DOT noise standards. Why does Akrapovič exist?
Same concept with the DSC box mod. The car simply handles and rides better than the OEM PASM. More control and more compliant on rough or undulating road surfaces, especially mid corner under braking or accelerating while traversing uneven pavement. It is just better, in every way, IMO. YMMV, and surely does!
Hey @Liste-Renn I have a dry sense of humor, the "Bring on the hate" was sarcasm, knowing that the opposing views would chime in. No sweat, and I enjoy your content, as stated earlier. As for your stating it's a "no-brainer", that to me means it is so obvious, it doesn't even require a brain to know it's right, and as I've stated, i do not feel that way. Like everyone else here, I can certainly add those mods, or any other, but truly have zero interest in doing that. I could buy a brand new 992 GT3 or GTS, but the size and styling doesn't appeal to me. And before I bought my car, I only ever owned a manual, and also wanted one in my GTS. I simply was unable, over the course of a year, to find a car I liked, until the one I have which happened to have PDK. I very seriously considered trading mine for a manual once I found one, and even discussed having my Porsche dealer convert mine to a manual. So I 100% understand the manual vs PDK argument. But, the last thing I ever expected was that I would actually grow to first respect, and then actually appreciate and enjoy the PDK. It sounds way better under hard acceleration, it is way faster accelerating and it allows for far faster lap times, something I do often. When I'm pulling out of the pits, full acceleration up the steep hill towards Turn 1 at COTA, the sound of my PDK equipped engine echoing off the grandstand and walls, is superior to any manual 911. And yes, Porsche only installs PDK in it's fastest, top of the line cars (RS and Turbo), which should tell you something. The surprising truth is, now that I've had a PDK GTS for all these years and 57,000 miles, I honestly would not go back. For my use, PDK works better. When I need to row my own, I take out my 1985.5 944 and get it out of my system.
sandwedge: Enough on the PDK not being available on other high end sports cars. This thread topic is 997 GTS cars for sale, not Ferraris. Lambos, nor McLarens. The market for 997 GTS cars is not the 997 market at large. Never was, in fact. Few buy one to race competitively, with Nate (nwGTS) a notable exception. The totally transparent auction site sale prices are data, not opinion. They confirm that a 997 6MT RWD Coupe, in most cases, has traded at a premium to a similar PDK, Cab or AWD version.
Understood and I agree with most of it. That said, my comment was meant to reflect on the undeniable trend away from manuals on high end sports cars across the board which you say yourself is a category in which you would place the 997 GTS. And for what it's worth, this from "Total 911 The Porsche Magazine":
It’s the perennial debate: what’s the better transmission for your Porsche 911, PDK or the old-fashioned manual shifter? PDK sales are currently usurping the manual choice across the 991-generation’s Carrera range.
10-16-2022 | 04:51 AM
), you may luck out and find a buyer who wants exactly what you've done. As posted previously, I had my GTS on the market about two years ago as I recall it. I got plenty of inquires and I would say that 99% of them asked if I had the stock wheels and if I had the stock seats. So a set of $7,000 Forgeline wheels and a set of $10,000 Porsche OEM carbon GT2 bucket seats actually decreased the value of my car. Took it off the market after all those absurd discussions.
