edomund

NuttyProfessor, did you read my 2 follow up replies after the post you chose to quote? I didn't ask for any guarantee. I did ask for clarification on issues they brought up that they have been reluctant to answer. I asked valid follow up questions to Jake's theories and videos. I believe some of the data and theories are misleading (not saying it's intentional) & I'm only trying to help clear up misinformation for the benefit of everyone reading this forum. My comments have been constructive unlike your comment name calling a fellow board member. Can we get the moderators to put a stop to people attacking other users for posting valid comments?

Black997er, Jake was not clear with his diagnosis. That is exactly why I asked follow up questions to clear up confusion that other people had as well as myself. If he gave a clear diagnosis then why are people talking about LSPI, injectors, and liner materials from what seems like a cold seizure? Baz is really the only one who has been very straight forward with his findings (cold seizures early in warm-up cycle). Baz even refrained from commenting on things that he was unsure if they contributed to the failures. Ie. people asking him about oil recommendations. Also I never said I have more experience than Jake. What I did say was I have experience building, tuning, damaging (sometimes), and then opening up engines. That has given me real world experience to draw from to ask intelligent follow up questions. I don't understand why people get so upset when people question other people they look up to.

Do either of you actually have an issue with the questions that I asked about LSPI, fuel injectors, or me asking if they could answer Baz's question about the piston/bore?

Mike Murphy

+1

Flat6 Innovations

Guys, like I posted many pages ago in this thread... I am taking the spring off to spend time with my daughter (who built her first engine all by herself at age 7 just a few days ago) as well as knock out several tasks related to my vehicle collection before I sit down to finish my M96/ M97 book in summer, and do another round of Rennvision Technical Videos.

I made a lot of mistakes with the M96/ M97 engines, sharing information, fighting with insignificant people, and etc. I’m not doing that again...

I could sit here, and write pages and pages about what we think, trying to make each of you think that we are “all knowing”. We know what we know because we started with these engines years and years before anyone else, and immediately pushed them to the limits, and breaking points. I don’t have to write dissertations filled with big words that just confuse people. While others are talking about it, we’ve already done it, and broken it, fixed it, and blown it up again.

No, my statement is not aimed toward Baz’s posts, or comments. He remains the only person in this industry that I truly respect. I commend him for taking his time to sit down and write the things that he has on these topics, knowing that people will bitch, moan and question what he says. (even though they can’t work their way out of a cardboard box with a sledge hammer)

Now, I have to service a vintage 1970s combat vehicle to get ready for an event this weekend where we will try to encourage young people to work with their hands, and be creative. See ya.

Bruce In Philly

Hang in there Jake, most of us love ya!

Who am I to judge? Well first, as I have noted here before... I am a canine brain surgeon... yes its true, I am a canine. Further, I just took my lug bolts off of my Porsche using a hammer and chisel! Yep! I am catching up to you... I am in the "broke it" phase. Video and book will follow.

Peace,
Bruce in Philly

Petza914

That's awesome, and I guess now we know how Bronz's motor got done so promptly. LOL

Doug H

Wow, all these pages and nothing really new.

Lets all just hope . . . assuming you are Porsche fans . . that the 9A1 does not reach the miserable failure rate of the 996 early 997s.

Does anyone really know how bad the M96/97s are when combining both the IMS failure rate and the bore scoring failure rate since the poll numbers for IMS failure rate are intentionally diluted to include 997.2s that don't even have IMS bearings?

I am about to dabble in one more 997.2 GTS covered by a Porsche CPO. If, however, the 9A1 is going to score at the rate of the 996 early 997s, not sure I would touch one even with a factory CPO. Let's hope the 9A1s fare better . . . or else buy new.

edomund

I'm thoroughly confused as to why some of you guys keep blindly defending someone who is stonewalling you. He could easily clear up the confusion created in this thread, but hasn't. I understand if you don't respect me because you don't know who I am, but Jake has refused to answer many of BAZ'S questions as well. Baz has said repeatedly that Jake has not responded to him. I'm guessing Baz quit posting on this thread because Jake stonewalled him as well. None of you have actually tried to debate the merits of my posts which I will gladly do. Instead you name call or get personal by calling into question my knowledge. If you think I'm incorrect with my analysis of Jakes posts then let me know how. Otherwise this just seems like hero-worship behavior and I'm not sure how to handle that as there doesn't seem to be any logic to it.

Jake,

Could you respond to Baz? "When they seize it is usually creating deep grooves - like the recent picture shows on one side of the bore - which is why I would like to see a picture showing both sides to see if it was a seizure or scoring (and the same request applies to the piston)".

Did you guys see any damage that was caused by LSPI in Bronz's engine?

Did his injector fail?

Thanks.

bronz

Hey guys, ive been kind of away from this thread just simply because i have no knowledge to add to this discussion. As far as my car goes, Jake has been giving me consistent updates and has done everything that needs to be done at least from my customer point of view. He has actually exceeded my expectations compared to all other experiences ive had with other shops right from the start, before i even sent my car there.

As far as the injector testing goes i will just quote what he had texted me:
"The extraction of the injector compromised the test to check for leakage, and spray pattern. All the other injectors tested ok after cleaning, but will be replaced anyway. Before cleaning all had a weak spray pattern, but were at the point of acceptable."As per Jake the car is still on schedule to be completed by the end of August.

Also big thanks to Charles for taking his time to take the measurements and post them here for everyone to see.

This thread was not meant to turn into fear mongering thread for current or potential buyers. This thread has gained so much popularity because of how RARE this issue is and nobody should be panicking. We have guys with many more miles than me, having no issues. As for right now, there will probably be no more updates until the block is back to Jakes shop in July and we start seeing it get put back together. I will most likely post rebuild process pics in my timeline thread as this thread is already way too long for new readers to go through.

user 72902

You’ve asked for the same information several times and it is obvious that you will not get the answer that you want. Starting to sound like a whiner.

Wayne Smith

Thanks Bronz.

It sounds like the injectors on the 997.2 may be better than anticipated. Just keep the Techron flowing!!!

Short of seeing specific evidence to the contrary it also appears that (per Baz) all failures to date may be cold seizure rather than bore scoring.

There remains some question about the bearings. Please do not turn this comment into LSPI and an oil debate.

There also may be some debate about chain guides although that's an aside.

But as you point out, the 9A1 motor seems to be pretty damned good 8)

Glad to hear you are happy with Jake. Satisfied can be a difficult state of mind to achieve!!!

PS: In the FWIW department, comments on this and other posts in combination with encouragement from a trusted friend caused me to add MOS2 at my oil change this weekend (as well as Pam's AMG and my F250).

I drove 30 miles to work today and my oil temperature was 10F to 20F below normal.

At noon I drove another 10 miles north to pick up filters for Pam's car and saw that not only was the oil staying 10F to 20F lower than normal but that once it got to 190F it then dropped to 180F and back to 190F and ...

This is the first time in my 85K miles of stewardship that I've seen any indication of temperature regulation in this car (2010 C4S PDK with 120K miles). At a stop light the oil temp dropped to below 180!!! Previously oil temps have been a function of ambient temperature and load. I never saw summer weather temps below 200F to 210F. This is a big change.

And the 700 rpm idle that used to waver 25 rpm is now much more stable.

One note ... I usually run at the lower bar on the oil gauge. I screwed up and didn't account for the extra volume of the MOS2 that I added to the first 5 quart jug of Mobil One 0-40. After adding another half jug I'm now at the full (not over full) indication. The above is far from scientific. So I'm not endorsing anything yet ... Merely reporting initial observations.

bazhart

(Actually I've been away for a graduate (Kingston University) class of '68 (51 years on) second annual reunion to Gibraltar with partners staying in the Sunborn 5 star Yacht - what a fabulous weekend away from everything Porsche! (although I have to admit we talked about racing and engineering quite a bit). Memories of fellow students supporting me racing at Brands Hatch as a teenager, to designing the Silver Dream Racer and filming with David Essex (interested the girls), nice weather - great food, cheap booze - with a lovely bunch of classmates and partners - just brilliant.

Now back to the grind.

We have a lot of development work to do here. We are not racing our own car yet this season due to an oil supply problem we have been working on. It seems possible that the Accusumps on one or two of our customers racers are failing to rebuild oil pressure quick enough to avoid milliseconds of low oil pressure in some corners and braking zones. After several seasons of 100% reliable M96 and Boxster S engines and Championships the Cayman S and 997 3.8's seem to have pushed boundaries a little further (heavier pistons and oil supply to more internals like variable lift tappets influencing pressure rebuild rates) . Anyway - we think we have identified the cause and are implementing a solution.

Regarding the subject of this topic (and to avoid confusion) our evidence is that it takes longer to warm up the cylinder bottoms of a 9A1 engine (due to the thick casting at the bottom of the cylinders) and that in some cases that casting leads to age related shrinking of the bore diameter in the thrust direction - resulting in cold seizures that may affect a random number of engines (yet to be established as a %) and that longer warming up periods are recommended.

I agree with Charles and would add that any Alusil engine has the potential to score a bore under conditions in which something influences the oil temperature or condition or type or running temperatures - but these will be extremely rare and generally not worth worrying about.

Jake and Charles are your best source of information in the USA and deserve respect (they have mine).

We all have different resources and solutions but history and customer reactions prove we are the best available (even when we may disagree on minutia).

Perhaps I am naïve in thinking that if we could discuss issues more we may be able to come up with more consistent responses - but I also accept that it is our very independence and desire to find great solutions that define what we do and that inevitably makes it difficult to communicate to others.

We also all have to survive in our businesses while taking on technical solutions that cost a small fortune in time and indeed money - when the cause was not our fault and we are often supporting owners in circumstances where they are effectively abandoned by the manufacturer.

We absolutely do not have to provide any technical explanations about what we do or why (it is our hard won intellectual property) and do need the confidence of our customers to recover the investments we make trying to sort out their cars and so when we disagree it can knock that situation and harm both us and those very customers.

That is why we often hold back from explaining what we think causes problems or to discuss the merits of different solutions.

The only important points is that we all supply good alternatives for owners Worldwide and to preserve that position often decline from explanations we already suspect may encourage more questions and arguments that could harm our reputations entirely unfairly and unnecessarily.

I think it is partly why we do not try and expand what we do too much - as the Internet could result in financial difficulties if we extended our investments nearer the commercial limit while the Internet is so good at causing confusion and criticism and fermenting discourse.

How we currently run our business is sound and we can handle anything thrown at us as a result and so I find myself sympathetic to the other contributors (like Jake and Charles) who like us try and explain things to people who in some circumstances could just be trolls and in others do not know enough technically to benefit but think they have a right to keep asking and stirring thigs up.

How I look back to that happy long weekend in Gibraltar wishing it could have included Jake and Charles - as I know that away from the pressures of the Internet - we would get on just fine and thoroughly enjoy sharing things in private.

Baz

C4SDayton

Baz, that was a great response, very diplomatic/professional as your others. I appreciate all the knowledge gained from the thread from all sides.

edomund

Bronz, thank you for informing us on the status of the injectors it's much appreciated.

Wayne Smith, I think you summed up the conclusions of the thread well.

Baz, I apologize if it came across that I was speaking on your behalf, that wasn't my intention. I also apologize if I came off as rude to anyone. I was just trying to help clear up some of the confusion that this thread has created. Also I really appreciate your straight forward approach to this topic and all the info you have chosen to share (it's invaluable). The way you present your findings is thorough and without spin. I don't believe Jake has been as forthright with the info.

Just to clarify I totally understand you guys don't have to share any info (I appreciate when you do) and sometimes hold back info for various reasons (self preservation/headaches, intellectual property, etc.) but that's not exactly what happened here. Jake chose to offer up theories on this thread that I believe are somewhat misleading (ie. hinting there was lspi and then telling people to buy his oil that solves this "problem"). Those particular theories (injector failure, lspi, Alusil failure) were willingly offered. Offering up these theories created valid questions and comments by yourself and well as others. Jake chose not to clarify or clear up the confusion by ignoring your questions as well as mine. That was my frustration. I believe it's immaterial whether or not people think I have the expertise to ask questions. I believe the thread bears out that I have been accurate with my conclusions.

I've had multiple members PM me saying they are in line with my thinking on this thread. I think they are choosing not to post as to avoid the flaming I have received. Also an interesting fact for you to think about. If you look at the profile of the person who called me a doucebag you will see every thread they have started was about either flat 6 or LN.

Petza914

FYI, I don't believe Jake makes money on the sale of Driven oil. He just uses it and recommends it based on his findings as to how it works in these Porsche engines on which he has extensive experience. Charles makes money on it as a sales channel, but it's Lake Speed that is from the company Driven Lubricants. Based on Jake's recommendation, I started using it a few years ago and see improved trends in my own used oil analysis reports on multiple vehicles, and I have no affiliation with any of these companies either.

To incenuate that Jake is deliberately creating issues that don't exist in the motors and then pedaling his "snake oil" that he has a financial benefit from to help protect against it, is a pretty crappy accusation. If that wasn't your intention that's how it comes across.

Charles Navarro

I'll clarify this. Jake makes zero money on sale of Driven oils nor does he get paid for the R&D work on lubricants that he has done over the years.

Jake makes money building and selling engines. This is a fact no one will dispute.

I took over Jake's 914 business many years ago, the Type 4 Store, because Jake doesn't want to do anything other than build engines. That and doing R&D work, which Jake does do for Driven, and LN Engineering for that matter. LN Engineering would not exist if it wasn't for Jake as it was Jake's direct guidance (and mentoring) back when I was a college student with an idea.

I make money selling product and services, Driven oil included. I don't hide this fact. We had a direct hand in developing the product and testing it in Porsche engines. We know it works, that's why we use and sell it. It would be easy enough for us to warehouse other brands and products to make more money, but we only sell what we believe is the best and know works.

I spend a large amount of my time researching current automotive topics and working on R&D projects which go mostly into helping me better educate other Porsche owners on topics that might directly affect them and this translates into posts on threads like this one, which is given away free of charge, but understand when you do purchase one of our products or use our services, a portion of that goes directly into research, development, and education.

I believe I have always conducted myself and represented my companies and brands objectively in a way that hasn't been overtly advertorial. I have said and will continue to say that my job is to educate the consumer. If I do my job right, and that includes making or selecting the best products possible, the consumer will make what they believe it the best decision.