997.2 3.8 Engine Failure
#721
Three Wheelin'
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Ed - you just don't get it. If I had the time all the points made by all three of these pros can be reconciled - but the bottom line is there is no one answer or panacea and there are several variable contributing factors that are are all considered that can potentially cause scoring in some cars. Jake mentioned this in his video and all have offered advice to minimize scoring as best that it could be at this point. Bottom line, this is a design flaw that could affect certain cars based on the contributing variables. LSPI could be one of them due to bad injectors etc , but no one can say for sure that you should go replace all you injectors and we understand that. Quite frankly I would not have had the patience of Baz, Jake or Charles to comment any further - go back and listen to all of Jake's Videos - they were pretty straight forward and enlightening. My 2005 3.6 does not show any external symptoms or oil consumption at 34k miles but it may at some point. You know what you can do -scope your engine and have someone reputable like Jake rebuild it- there's your definitive answer to prevent scoring.
#722
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I will get pictures of the pistons when I return to the office tomorrow and will post them over the weekend. I must have missed that post while I was in Germany and not monitoring the forums and this thread closely.
What makes you qualified to determine that if it's seizing that the other issues aren't related or contributing factors?
I've given the data - what more do you want? You are ignoring the fact that the piston had 0.5mm of clearance in the scored cylinder. It was flopping about in the bore, and as I stated previously, that was a sign of a collapsed piston skirt. I've seen this in M96 engines a few times without scoring, but if that particular engine was driven longer, who is to say that the excess clearance as evidenced by piston slap didn't increase the side loading of the piston in the bore, resulting in wear in the areas of the piston that now are the high spots due to the way the piston skirt is cammed.
What makes you qualified to determine that if it's seizing that the other issues aren't related or contributing factors?
I've given the data - what more do you want? You are ignoring the fact that the piston had 0.5mm of clearance in the scored cylinder. It was flopping about in the bore, and as I stated previously, that was a sign of a collapsed piston skirt. I've seen this in M96 engines a few times without scoring, but if that particular engine was driven longer, who is to say that the excess clearance as evidenced by piston slap didn't increase the side loading of the piston in the bore, resulting in wear in the areas of the piston that now are the high spots due to the way the piston skirt is cammed.
Ed - you just don't get it. If I had the time all the points made by all three of these pros can be reconciled - but the bottom line is there is no one answer or panacea and there are several variable contributing factors that are are all considered that can potentially cause scoring in some cars. Jake mentioned this in his video and all have offered advice to minimize scoring as best that it could be at this point. Bottom line, this is a design flaw that could affect certain cars based on the contributing variables. LSPI could be one of them due to bad injectors etc , but no one can say for sure that you should go replace all you injectors and we understand that. Quite frankly I would not have had the patience of Baz, Jake or Charles to comment any further - go back and listen to all of Jake's Videos - they were pretty straight forward and enlightening. My 2005 3.6 does not show any external symptoms or oil consumption at 34k miles but it may at some point. You know what you can do -scope your engine and have someone reputable like Jake rebuild it- there's your definitive answer to prevent scoring.
#723
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The pics Baz asked for is the only question that was directed towards you, everything else was questions for Jake.
To the others chimming in with critisisms towards me instead of discussing the data I think you are misunderstanding where I'm coming from. You guys think I'm looking for some particular outcome, conclusion, or cure, but I'm not and have said as much. I don't care what the outcome is and I'm not looking for a conclusion, my goal was to try and have this thread be as accurate as possible. When you throw out theories on a thread or in a video be prepared to have someone ask questions. If Jake says you should use a specific oil because of lspi the logical question is why do you think there has been instances of lspi/did you see evidence of detonation in this engine? This is really straight forward even if engines as a whole are not. You also think I'm trying to prove Jake wrong and I'm not. I asked a question to understand his thinking. If he did find evidence of a failed injector or evidence of lspi then GREAT that is something for us to think about and discuss. If he did not then it's really a waste of time to think about it until they do find evidence of it. Seriously you don't waste time worrying about if you have a disease if you show no symptoms of that disease. I honestly think you just don't appreciate anyone questioning Jake even if it's a valid question. Look at all of these posts of you guys flaming me and then Charles says he will post the pics that I asked for in the beginning.
Last edited by edomund; 05-02-2019 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Typo
#724
RL Community Team
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Thanks
The pics Baz asked for is the only question that was directed towards you, everything else was questions for Jake.
To the others chimming in with critisisms towards me instead of discussing the data I think you are misunderstanding where I'm coming from. You guys think I'm looking for some particular outcome, conclusion, or cure, but I'm not and have said as much. I don't care what the outcome is, my goal was to try and have this thread be as accurate as possible. When you through out theories on a thread or in a video be prepared to have someone ask questions. If Jake says you should use a specific oil because of lspi the logical question is why do you think there has been instances of lspi/did you see evidence of detonation in this engine? This is really straight forward even if engines as a whole are not. You also think I'm trying to prove Jake wrong and I'm not. I asked a question to understand his thinking. If he did find evidence of a failed injector or evidence of lspi then GREAT that is something for us to think about and discuss. If he did not then it's really a waste of time to think about it until they do find evidence of it. Seriously you don't waste time worrying about if you have a disease if you show no symptoms of that disease. I honestly think you just don't appreciate anyone questioning Jake even if it's a valid question. Look at all of these posts of you guys flaming me and then Charles says he will post the pics tat I asked for in the beginning.
The pics Baz asked for is the only question that was directed towards you, everything else was questions for Jake.
To the others chimming in with critisisms towards me instead of discussing the data I think you are misunderstanding where I'm coming from. You guys think I'm looking for some particular outcome, conclusion, or cure, but I'm not and have said as much. I don't care what the outcome is, my goal was to try and have this thread be as accurate as possible. When you through out theories on a thread or in a video be prepared to have someone ask questions. If Jake says you should use a specific oil because of lspi the logical question is why do you think there has been instances of lspi/did you see evidence of detonation in this engine? This is really straight forward even if engines as a whole are not. You also think I'm trying to prove Jake wrong and I'm not. I asked a question to understand his thinking. If he did find evidence of a failed injector or evidence of lspi then GREAT that is something for us to think about and discuss. If he did not then it's really a waste of time to think about it until they do find evidence of it. Seriously you don't waste time worrying about if you have a disease if you show no symptoms of that disease. I honestly think you just don't appreciate anyone questioning Jake even if it's a valid question. Look at all of these posts of you guys flaming me and then Charles says he will post the pics tat I asked for in the beginning.
#725
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Don't know if LSPI will prove to be an issue with these DI engines, but it has been shown to be an issue in other DI engines, even if only or mainly smaller engines and more in turbocharged engines. There is obviously enough issue for billion dollar companies to meet SN plus certification. In the world of owners spending up to $12 a quart on oil then changing oil after 3-5k miles, why not use one that addresses a potential issue currently not proven. Porsche isn't going to say it's an issue.
As for not worrying about having a disease showing no symptoms, that's a stupid analogy. That's like saying don't worry about the really high BP and cholesterol causing no symptoms, just wait for the MI or stroke and deal then.
As for not worrying about having a disease showing no symptoms, that's a stupid analogy. That's like saying don't worry about the really high BP and cholesterol causing no symptoms, just wait for the MI or stroke and deal then.
#726
Three Wheelin'
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Not really flaming you; but you are being a nudge. What you are not getting is that the information provided in this thread is "as accurate as possible". These guys are posting to the best of their knowledge and I for one and others here appreciate all they have shared whether ultimately, definitively, conclusive or not. Realize that as much of this stuff is science and technical, part of getting to the right answer is art as well, even in what I do (S&P 500 scale corporate tax). Tell me what do you do for a living and I will ask you to definitively /conclusively respond to some very technical questions in your free time?
#728
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CS4Dayton, you're correct lspi is mostly an issue in high compression turbo charged engines. I haven't seen it be an issue in normally aspirated engines. In your analogy what's the "high BP" or "cholesterol"? It wasn't a injector failure, fuel wash, or signs of detonation. If you're going to say bearing wear go look at studies on lspi and see if they mention bearing wear. If you're going to say weak spray pattern that would throw a lean misfire code or something similar.
Sporty, would you say not posting the results of the injector tests was being accurate? The only reason we know the results is Bronz was kind enough to share them after I pressed the issue. So the fuel injector info that we had wasn't "to the best of their knowledge" because Jake knew the results of the injector test and didn't share them. Jake also knew what both sides of the piston and bore looked like and hadn't shared that. See a pattern here? Repeating to me that this is an art and not exact science has no relevance when someone asks a direct question that someone else has the answer to. You harassing me for trying to get answers to something that does have an answer is not helpful. Also I didn't ask for bigger picture conclusions from Jake. I asked specific questions that had answers.
Sporty, would you say not posting the results of the injector tests was being accurate? The only reason we know the results is Bronz was kind enough to share them after I pressed the issue. So the fuel injector info that we had wasn't "to the best of their knowledge" because Jake knew the results of the injector test and didn't share them. Jake also knew what both sides of the piston and bore looked like and hadn't shared that. See a pattern here? Repeating to me that this is an art and not exact science has no relevance when someone asks a direct question that someone else has the answer to. You harassing me for trying to get answers to something that does have an answer is not helpful. Also I didn't ask for bigger picture conclusions from Jake. I asked specific questions that had answers.
#730
#731
Former Vendor
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Would you like a few expletives to help drive the point home to you? If so, I’d be happy to oblige.
#732
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Hey that's your right. Now to everyone that harrassed me saying Jake was forthright and gave info to the best of his knowledge, there's your answer from the horses mouth. He didn't want to. Take what you read from Jake in this thread with a grain of salt.
#734
Rennlist Member
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Rennlist is free and mostly anonymous. It can be a gold mine of great people and information. But it can be a worthless waste of time too.
Nobody owes anyone anything here.
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bentrod (12-26-2019)
#735
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Dude, you’ve been on Rennlist for just a few months and have only started one thread looking for Recommendations for PPF & Ceramic Coating Installer Sacramento Area.
Rennlist is free and mostly anonymous. It can be a gold mine of great people and information. But it can be a worthless waste of time too.
Nobody owes anyone anything here.
Rennlist is free and mostly anonymous. It can be a gold mine of great people and information. But it can be a worthless waste of time too.
Nobody owes anyone anything here.