okie981

+1

Balr14

You and everyone who agrees with you has to understand this is not an exact science. These guys see the result of a failure and can only speculate on exactly what caused it based on some knowledge and a very small sample. If you are looking for hard and fast causes, come back in 5 years. Maybe there will be enough evidence then. Your responses illustrates the pitfalls of why our experts don't post more.

Charles Navarro

Summed up quite nicely. I liken this discussion to IMS threads back over a decade ago, years before the class action lawsuit, and before everything else we have learned since. Back then similarly we were told we invented the problem to sell product and that the whole IMS issue was a made up one.

Only difference here is that scoring of hypereutectic blocks is a real thing and not just a Porsche problem, however even researchers globally don't have a complete understanding of why it happens and what can be done to prevent it. We can't speak in absolutes, and at best, we can take the few failures we do see and try to learn with each one.

edomund

Petza 914, I can see how it came across as me saying he was pushing snake oil. That was not my intention and I could have elaborated to avoid that. What I was trying to say was he suggested there is lspi issues with these particular engines and then offered a solution that he is involved with. Then when I asked if he saw evidence of lspi he wouldn't confirm if he had after he inspected the engine. I feel if he's going to suggest to people to use an oil (that he's affiliated with in some manner) to correct a specific issue like lspi then he owes it to those same people to answer the question of why does he think there has been lspi occuring. I'm sure DI40 is a good oil and didn't intend to say it isn't. I also think there are lots of other full saps oil that are just as good and people shouldn't be boxed in thinking they need to run DI40.

Balr14, we know this is an issue that has many variables. That is exactly why I tried to help possibly narrow the focus of what exactly caused the failure by asking questions. My questions were yes and no questions that did have "exact science" answers. That's evident by Bronz saying none of the injectors tested bad. If we do start to see some injectors fail, great then we'll have evidence to go off of, until then it's a non issue. As far as lspi that is also a yes or no to seeing damage from detonation. This has nothing to do with some 100% guarantee you think we're looking for it's about trying to be as accurate as possible. Why do people have an issue with anyone asking questions trying to get clarification?

Charles, I'm not saying you guys are making anything up I was trying to understand your thinking on these issues.

Bruce In Philly

Honestly, this thread is tame given my experience when my first engine blew back in 2003.... folks were just hostile to me... accused me of abusing the car and lying about my maintenance. I honestly don't get this... anonymity of the 'net maybe? I dunno. By the time my 2nd engine blew... everyone was pretty accepting that this is just the way it is.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Charles Navarro

You are beating a dead horse, that's why. Jake isn't going to answer your questions or any more questions on the topic or this thread, so don't expect anything more from him on it. Honestly, I'm even losing my patience here. Please re-read my detailed posts and those from Baz as well as there really isn't anything more to add than what has already been posted and offered.



As stated previously, the offending injector could not be salvaged and hence, could not be tested, and Bronz stated the spray pattern was poor on the others. However, we have years of real world experience that bad injectors (leaking or poor pattern) are killing M96/M97 engines, so anecdotally, it makes sense to think a bad injector could indeed be what starts the whole scoring problem. We are trying our best to connect the dots with what evidence we have, especially when we don't have the full story or all the pieces. Baz and Jake are lucky in that they get to see entire engines and cars, where we typically only see the failed blocks and sometimes the pistons.

Doesn't read that way. Again, please re-read what I've posted. I've offered more than just opinion.

bazhart

Just to inform those following this post that I have now sent Charles the same information I originally sent to Jake which he will no doubt comment on at some future time.

Baz

Flat6 Innovations

Baz,
To clear the air... Everything you had sent me, looked exactly like what we’ve experienced since 2011, over, and over again. I could have confused your parts, with our parts, simply because the #1 cylinder has looked this way over and over again.
That’s the only report that I really feel necessary about what you had sent me to review... (Which I do appreciate).

Once my spring break is over, I’ll have two engines to disassemble that we purposely slapped together with failing parts to see how some things responded to some changes. This type of practical application testing is the only way to prove what we are seeing, but it takes years to carry out. If anyone on the forum would like to be a test driver (volunteer position) to drive a test vehicle two loops around the perimeter of the Continental USA, that may help us do this faster.

FYI- Dealers are now getting tipped off to watch for #1 cylinder issues with these engines. Last week we received a car that came from a dealer. Attached to the work order was a copy of a post- it note that someone didn’t remove before making a copy of the work order. That was pretty revealing, and further substantiates things a bit.

I plan to do a 9a1 bore scope video in the upcoming summer. It will be just like the one I did for the M96,M97, but show some different 9a1 specific tricks.

BTW- from now on you guys can just call me “Stonewall”. I’ll take that.

Back to goofing off, today I am slapping an engine in a rail buggy that’s been sitting in my swamp for 8 years, so my daughter and I can go play in the mud.

Prairiedawg

Only if you'll accept the title of "General" first

Wayne Smith

What's the timing on that Continental USA perimeter drive? I'm remodeling for a few months but might be available come Fall. Got to take a few benefits with retirement!!!

edomund

I read both posts and your post contradicts Baz's post, that's why there's confusion and follow up questions. Baz said he has only seen (1st hand) cold seizures and this failure seems like one as well. Jake also said right above this post, "To clear the air... Everything you had sent me, looked exactly like what we’ve experienced since 2011". Your post says it has to do with scoring and Alusil. That leads to confusion and questions like Baz asking to see pics of the other side of the piston and bore.

Since you guys won't offer any more or directly answer Baz or myself it leaves people reading through this thread trying to sort through all of the posts and figure out whether Baz or you & Jake are closer to the correct diagnosis on what actually caused this failure (cold seizure or combo of Alusil, injectors, lspi). I think this is a disservice to the readers because if you guys answered the questions it would help eliminate some of the variables and allow people to better focus their attention on the issues that are vital to keeping their engine running as long as possible. I'm not asking anyone to answer any questions at this point I'm just explaining myself.

Charles Navarro

I can't give anyone a more definitive reason why these failures occur than I already have or eliminate certain possibilities at a whim.

I still do not know what questions of Baz I have not answered, but I will review the information he supplied to me thoroughly then discuss it with him first before I post anything here. It's his data and not mine to share. If and when he is ready to share it, that is his prerogative.

Let me make perfectly clear - I don't see everything Jake sees and likewise Jake doesn't see everything I see. He's in GA and I'm in IL, and however much we collaborate, LN and Flat 6 are separate independently operated companies in separate states. Likewise, other than pictures, videos, and measurements from Baz, he's across the pond and there is no way I can see what he's seen. So I can't discount or validate observations Jake and Baz have made or their conclusions. I shared the data from Bronz's block, my conclusions, and recommendations.

With limited evidence and small sample size, our observations and conclusions, however divergent, doesn't discount the fact that we can all be right and that failures are more complicated than we want them to be. Although I'd like a silver bullet, I did make as general a post about what can be done to help, but asking the same question over and over again because you don't like the answer won't change it.

edomund

Charles, "I still do not know what questions of Baz I have not answered".

I posted that Baz asked to see the other side of the piston and bore to try to determine if it was a seizure.

Charles, "however divergent, doesn't discount the fact that we can all be right".

If it was a cold seizure (that's all Baz has seen 1st hand) then it's very unlikely it also related to all the other issues you guys have brought up. If the piston was too big for the bore then the other issues are mute. Also I'm not asking for anyone to answer me any longer I get it you guys are not willing to give that data.

Hilltopper

BINGO!! Get over it!

Charles Navarro

I will get pictures of the pistons when I return to the office tomorrow and will post them over the weekend. I must have missed that post while I was in Germany and not monitoring the forums and this thread closely.

What makes you qualified to determine that if it's seizing that the other issues aren't related or contributing factors?

I've given the data - what more do you want? You are ignoring the fact that the piston had 0.5mm of clearance in the scored cylinder. It was flopping about in the bore, and as I stated previously, that was a sign of a collapsed piston skirt. I've seen this in M96 engines a few times without scoring, but if that particular engine was driven longer, who is to say that the excess clearance as evidenced by piston slap didn't increase the side loading of the piston in the bore, resulting in wear in the areas of the piston that now are the high spots due to the way the piston skirt is cammed.