Lithium ion battery
03-14-2023, 08:09 PM
#181
Rennlist Member
Am I the only one who sees the irony of a thread expending the time and money to develop a work around for a problem inherent to a $2100 OPTION that the buyer chose? Instead of a work around, maybe we should just reconsider whether we want to spend $2100 on this option to begin with? Just saying……….
But thank you to Anti Gravity for trying to develop a solution to the Porsche factory issue.
But thank you to Anti Gravity for trying to develop a solution to the Porsche factory issue.
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03-14-2023, 08:27 PM
#182
I am not saying not a problem, but you do understand, current stats of all 911s there are nearly 35% that have RAS (and / or Lipo - market specific). That would include all markets with LiPo as standard, all 911's that optioned RAS in non-Lipo markets as well as GT cars with RAS as Standard. I know you think because there are a lot of people that posted on this forum with issues (even then only a few dozen to my count). That is just a fraction of what has been delivered with LiPo. Talking to several service advisors, they are not seeing this as an epidemic (2 porsche dealers in my network have only had 6 in total have an issue) and that is across 2 mid-sized dealers. So that is why I do not think it is a majority having issues.
Now I still believe it to be a problem, but lets not get carried away and saying that all with RAS/LiPo are having the issue, as only a small percentage are. Still a problem, yes.,
PS. I ordered RAS on both my 992s as I have it in my 991.2 Touring, and love it. Would order it again (which I will on my next 992.2 or whatever I get after my 992 Targa (with RAS and Lipo) - I think it is awesome. I do hope that porsche fixes whatever issue they are having (not with the Lipo - that is not the problem) it is the BMS coding on some that is the issue.
The good news is that you do not have to order RAS - which if you are not in a market with LiPo as standard - great. But for me, I wanted my targa with PDCC and RAS, which is why I ordered it - and thus far no issues - like the majority.
Now I still believe it to be a problem, but lets not get carried away and saying that all with RAS/LiPo are having the issue, as only a small percentage are. Still a problem, yes.,
PS. I ordered RAS on both my 992s as I have it in my 991.2 Touring, and love it. Would order it again (which I will on my next 992.2 or whatever I get after my 992 Targa (with RAS and Lipo) - I think it is awesome. I do hope that porsche fixes whatever issue they are having (not with the Lipo - that is not the problem) it is the BMS coding on some that is the issue.
The good news is that you do not have to order RAS - which if you are not in a market with LiPo as standard - great. But for me, I wanted my targa with PDCC and RAS, which is why I ordered it - and thus far no issues - like the majority.
Again, respectfully
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03-14-2023, 08:48 PM
#183
Racer
Which goes back to my original question to Antigravity, is the AGM battery cable, for us with LiPo batteries a work around?
BTW I ordered my Targa with PDCC and RAS also love both and would do it again. So far, 1 year 3 months, no problems with the BMS.
My car which is a DD is on a LiPo tender hard wired whenever I’m not using it. I pull into my garage and it gets plugged in.
BTW I ordered my Targa with PDCC and RAS also love both and would do it again. So far, 1 year 3 months, no problems with the BMS.
My car which is a DD is on a LiPo tender hard wired whenever I’m not using it. I pull into my garage and it gets plugged in.
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Fullyield (03-15-2023)
03-14-2023, 09:14 PM
#184
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
May I point out that other than installing a new ground cable, there is also some coding to be done via PIWIS, to reconfigure the car to the "new" AGM battery.
Specifically the GATEWAY module and code J2A (LiFePO4 battery 580A, 70Ah) would need to be replaced by code J0V (Battery 420 A, 70 Ah). I suspect there may be some changes in VOF as well perhaps.
I strongly recommend that all linked parameters to LiFePO4 be ascertained and changed in their respective modules before swapping out the cable as I'm not sure what the issues may be if conflicting information is found in different modules.
siberian
Specifically the GATEWAY module and code J2A (LiFePO4 battery 580A, 70Ah) would need to be replaced by code J0V (Battery 420 A, 70 Ah). I suspect there may be some changes in VOF as well perhaps.
I strongly recommend that all linked parameters to LiFePO4 be ascertained and changed in their respective modules before swapping out the cable as I'm not sure what the issues may be if conflicting information is found in different modules.
siberian
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Fullyield (03-15-2023)
03-14-2023, 11:33 PM
#185
Rennlist Member
So how many complaints of failure do you deem to be enough? 1? 10? 100?… What’s your number? An owner spends upwards of 200k on a new car. In short time the 2.5k battery fails, rendering the car useless, despite the use of a battery tender. Depending on dealer, the owner gets nowhere much except promises of investigation, maybe a loaner blah blah…Just how do you EXPECT these guys to feel?! Please stop apologising for Porsche and its crappy product. Despite its wonderful-to-drive car (when it cranks), there is clearly an issue.
Again, respectfully
Again, respectfully
Of course I have 3 Land Rovers/Range Rovers, so maybe I am now immune to daily issues with cars... [img]images/icons/icon10.gif[/img]
I have had nearly every car make, and I still say - Porsche is one of the best brands you can buy and have the most reliability and dependability. I would trade every one of my exotics, if I had to choose, over my 911.
PS. I do love the speed of my 720s a bit more than my 911's.. But would still keep my touring over the Mac if push came to shove, and maybe even my Targa - as it is my DD...
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Quikag (03-15-2023)
03-15-2023, 12:42 AM
#186
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Alas it can't be rectified if you can't get a battery to replace it and your car (were it not for the frickin battery is perfectly drive-able but as it is, it's paperweight).
As to PCNA, I've got a TSB that my "so called" dealer refuses to implement and the only support I got from PCNA was "well we haven't heard from them either but we'll keep trying" - this after 3 weeks. So if THEY (PCNA) can't get an answer out of this **&&^^&* dealership, how do you think mere mortals feel? There is no support, what came over Boeing with the acquisition of McDonnell-Douglas has come over Porsche with VW "sell, sell, sell". We saw it with dieselgate.
If the situation is worse at F or McL or elsewhere is no excuse for putting up with so called "minor" crap because it's worse elsewhere. Many things in the 992 were not ready for prime time, this is a glaring example, because if it's your car with a dead battery and none on the horizon for months your minor just became major.
siberian
As to PCNA, I've got a TSB that my "so called" dealer refuses to implement and the only support I got from PCNA was "well we haven't heard from them either but we'll keep trying" - this after 3 weeks. So if THEY (PCNA) can't get an answer out of this **&&^^&* dealership, how do you think mere mortals feel? There is no support, what came over Boeing with the acquisition of McDonnell-Douglas has come over Porsche with VW "sell, sell, sell". We saw it with dieselgate.
If the situation is worse at F or McL or elsewhere is no excuse for putting up with so called "minor" crap because it's worse elsewhere. Many things in the 992 were not ready for prime time, this is a glaring example, because if it's your car with a dead battery and none on the horizon for months your minor just became major.
siberian
03-15-2023, 12:46 AM
#187
Alas it can't be rectified if you can't get a battery to replace it and your car (were it not for the frickin battery is perfectly drive-able but as it is, it's paperweight).
As to PCNA, I've got a TSB that my "so called" dealer refuses to implement and the only support I got from PCNA was "well we haven't heard from them either but we'll keep trying" - this after 3 weeks. So if THEY (PCNA) can't get an answer out of this **&&^^&* dealership, how do you think mere mortals feel? There is no support, what came over Boeing with the acquisition of McDonnell-Douglas has come over Porsche with VW "sell, sell, sell". We saw it with dieselgate.
If the situation is worse at F or McL or elsewhere is no excuse for putting up with so called "minor" crap because it's worse elsewhere. Many things in the 992 were not ready for prime time, this is a glaring example, because if it's your car with a dead battery and none on the horizon for months your minor just became major.
siberian
As to PCNA, I've got a TSB that my "so called" dealer refuses to implement and the only support I got from PCNA was "well we haven't heard from them either but we'll keep trying" - this after 3 weeks. So if THEY (PCNA) can't get an answer out of this **&&^^&* dealership, how do you think mere mortals feel? There is no support, what came over Boeing with the acquisition of McDonnell-Douglas has come over Porsche with VW "sell, sell, sell". We saw it with dieselgate.
If the situation is worse at F or McL or elsewhere is no excuse for putting up with so called "minor" crap because it's worse elsewhere. Many things in the 992 were not ready for prime time, this is a glaring example, because if it's your car with a dead battery and none on the horizon for months your minor just became major.
siberian
03-15-2023, 02:18 AM
#188
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
For the time being I don't have an issue with my LiFePO4, but it's the uncertainty which is why my battery is constantly rotated in and out of CTEK. The BS of "having to drive your car x miles if not your battery may die", really?. My 2008 Touareg sits for weeks without being plugged in with no major issues.
Whether it's 100 or 10,000 cars; it's an issue, that, as dieselgate showed, VW refused to address until a more powerful organization dragged their asses into court. The President of VW, the Engineer who knew every nut and bolt of every car they made swore the mpg results were correct. Lies.
BMS is not ready for prime time, and there IMHO lies the heart of this mess as it controls all electrical management. While some may experience battery deaths with no alternate batteries in the horizon it's the underlying system that's unstable and PCNA refuses to even consider there "may" be an issue.
As to Antigravity, there "may" be a solution by swapping out the ground cable, and replacing the LiFePO4 for an AGM. But as I pointed out above, what modules need to be recoded? What impact does overlooking one parameter have on the system that would then have a conflict stating the car has both an AGM AND a LiFePO4 battery on board?
Again swapping out the battery removes the Lithium battery from the equation, but the underlying BMS system is still there... I personally don't believe it's exclusively the LiFePO4s fault. It's what's managing it that causes issues and that is an unknown that can happen at any moment. Correlating it that to what triggered it is going to be really difficult.
It's certainly not a minor issue as we don't know what coding(s) are causing parasitic draws etc. for example and those can manifest themselves at any time.
siberian
Whether it's 100 or 10,000 cars; it's an issue, that, as dieselgate showed, VW refused to address until a more powerful organization dragged their asses into court. The President of VW, the Engineer who knew every nut and bolt of every car they made swore the mpg results were correct. Lies.
BMS is not ready for prime time, and there IMHO lies the heart of this mess as it controls all electrical management. While some may experience battery deaths with no alternate batteries in the horizon it's the underlying system that's unstable and PCNA refuses to even consider there "may" be an issue.
As to Antigravity, there "may" be a solution by swapping out the ground cable, and replacing the LiFePO4 for an AGM. But as I pointed out above, what modules need to be recoded? What impact does overlooking one parameter have on the system that would then have a conflict stating the car has both an AGM AND a LiFePO4 battery on board?
Again swapping out the battery removes the Lithium battery from the equation, but the underlying BMS system is still there... I personally don't believe it's exclusively the LiFePO4s fault. It's what's managing it that causes issues and that is an unknown that can happen at any moment. Correlating it that to what triggered it is going to be really difficult.
It's certainly not a minor issue as we don't know what coding(s) are causing parasitic draws etc. for example and those can manifest themselves at any time.
siberian
Last edited by siberian; 03-15-2023 at 02:25 AM.
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Fullyield (03-15-2023)
03-15-2023, 03:15 AM
#189
Am I the only one who sees the irony of a thread expending the time and money to develop a work around for a problem inherent to a $2100 OPTION that the buyer chose? Instead of a work around, maybe we should just reconsider whether we want to spend $2100 on this option to begin with? Just saying……….
But thank you to Anti Gravity for trying to develop a solution to the Porsche factory issue.
But thank you to Anti Gravity for trying to develop a solution to the Porsche factory issue.
The following users liked this post:
Fullyield (03-15-2023)
03-15-2023, 08:15 AM
#190
So how many complaints of failure do you deem to be enough? 1? 10? 100?… What’s your number? An owner spends upwards of 200k on a new car. In short time the 2.5k battery fails, rendering the car useless, despite the use of a battery tender. Depending on dealer, the owner gets nowhere much except promises of investigation, maybe a loaner blah blah…Just how do you EXPECT these guys to feel?! Please stop apologising for Porsche and its crappy product. Despite its wonderful-to-drive car (when it cranks), there is clearly an issue.
Again, respectfully
Again, respectfully
Last edited by Fullyield; 03-15-2023 at 08:19 AM.
03-15-2023, 08:18 AM
#191
I am not - I feel for those that have issues .. That is why we have a warranty . Honestly if 100 have this issue out of 2K+ 911 variants made, not sure if you expect a massive recall or something., When dealing in the world of sports and exotic cars, I guess I am more tolerant and patient. Compared to my F, L and M cars I have or had, this is a minor issue that can be rectified (which Porsche typically does under warranty). You should probably steer clear of Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren - Dear lord you would have a heart attack with the issues that you might have there.. They can be a nightmare.
Of course I have 3 Land Rovers/Range Rovers, so maybe I am now immune to daily issues with cars... [img]images/icons/icon10.gif[/img]
I have had nearly every car make, and I still say - Porsche is one of the best brands you can buy and have the most reliability and dependability. I would trade every one of my exotics, if I had to choose, over my 911.
PS. I do love the speed of my 720s a bit more than my 911's.. But would still keep my touring over the Mac if push came to shove, and maybe even my Targa - as it is my DD...
Of course I have 3 Land Rovers/Range Rovers, so maybe I am now immune to daily issues with cars... [img]images/icons/icon10.gif[/img]
I have had nearly every car make, and I still say - Porsche is one of the best brands you can buy and have the most reliability and dependability. I would trade every one of my exotics, if I had to choose, over my 911.
PS. I do love the speed of my 720s a bit more than my 911's.. But would still keep my touring over the Mac if push came to shove, and maybe even my Targa - as it is my DD...
Last edited by Fullyield; 03-15-2023 at 08:26 AM.
03-15-2023, 08:25 AM
#192
03-15-2023, 03:55 PM
#193
Rennlist Member
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...e-battery.html
A few Cayennes were delivered with AGM batteries utilizing an external BMS, supposedly due to the LFP battery shortage affecting both Cayenne and Taycan. That pointed us down the road using the battery harness from those AGM Cayennes on the LFP Cayennes.
Watching this thread with interest.
Last edited by Schnave; 03-15-2023 at 03:56 PM.
03-15-2023, 04:10 PM
#194
Rennlist Member
Am I the only one who sees the irony of a thread expending the time and money to develop a work around for a problem inherent to a $2100 OPTION that the buyer chose? Instead of a work around, maybe we should just reconsider whether we want to spend $2100 on this option to begin with? Just saying……….
But thank you to Anti Gravity for trying to develop a solution to the Porsche factory issue.
But thank you to Anti Gravity for trying to develop a solution to the Porsche factory issue.
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jlegelis (03-15-2023)
03-15-2023, 06:03 PM
#195
Standard equipment on the 2019+ Cayenne. So we’re stuck with proprietary LFP batteries whether we want them or not. We have a sticky on the LFP battery problems plus a thread very similar to this one discussing the conversion to non-proprietary batteries.
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...e-battery.html
A few Cayennes were delivered with AGM batteries utilizing an external BMS, supposedly due to the LFP battery shortage affecting both Cayenne and Taycan. That pointed us down the road using the battery harness from those AGM Cayennes on the LFP Cayennes.
Watching this thread with interest.
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...e-battery.html
A few Cayennes were delivered with AGM batteries utilizing an external BMS, supposedly due to the LFP battery shortage affecting both Cayenne and Taycan. That pointed us down the road using the battery harness from those AGM Cayennes on the LFP Cayennes.
Watching this thread with interest.
The following users liked this post:
Schnave (03-15-2023)