GT3 992.2 Prices crashing? MSRP Coming?
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 194
Likes: 69
money never transfers through the BAT platform, so technically BAT never knows if the transaction was actually completed. So what you are saying makes sense
Racer
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 403
Likes: 33
From: SF
I find all of this interesting, but still don't see it as manipulation, or see that it is really affecting end-user prices paid.
There are several thousand GT3s in the hands of owners. They could sell their cars if this market was artificially high. But they prefer to own the car at 300k (or whatever) than sell it. If you think that the prices are BS, put your car up on BAT. Is the argument that you will only get 225 for your car because you don't have shill bidders or aren't working in cahoots with a dealer? No way. There is no data to suggest that private sellers are getting MSRP or less on BAT while these so-caller phoney auctions are getting 100k over MSRP. So, go ahead, sell. But you won't, because you prefer your car to the 300k.
I think 4 of my Porsches now were all purchased over MSRP (none with "ADM" though). Worst example is 1969 911s which is probably worth 15x MSRP. 964 Carrera RS at 2x MSRP. Etc. There is demand. I wasn't tricked into paying up for the 964 because I saw a BAT sale. The car is worth that to me. If I can sell if for 400k tomorrow, I will. I am sure I can sell if for what I paid.
Just because there are apparently shady things going on doesn't mean that the end-user prices are artifically high. If Porsche didn't discourage or prevent dealers from pricing at the market, buyers would all have time to look at the cars, configure, etc. And the buyer with the highest willingness to pay would get the car. Instead, Porsche has created a system where dealers can't freely charge what the market will bear. So in come all of these shenanigans, middlemen, etc. And the ultimate allocation process to end-users is messy and inefficient.
Still, I am not convinced that prices are too high because of any of this. People like the cars, and are willing to pay a ton for them. BAT is probably <5% of the GT3 market, so I don't really think that the rest of us are all getting ripped off when we are willing pay big money for the cars, or when we don't sell what we have for that same big money.
There are several thousand GT3s in the hands of owners. They could sell their cars if this market was artificially high. But they prefer to own the car at 300k (or whatever) than sell it. If you think that the prices are BS, put your car up on BAT. Is the argument that you will only get 225 for your car because you don't have shill bidders or aren't working in cahoots with a dealer? No way. There is no data to suggest that private sellers are getting MSRP or less on BAT while these so-caller phoney auctions are getting 100k over MSRP. So, go ahead, sell. But you won't, because you prefer your car to the 300k.
I think 4 of my Porsches now were all purchased over MSRP (none with "ADM" though). Worst example is 1969 911s which is probably worth 15x MSRP. 964 Carrera RS at 2x MSRP. Etc. There is demand. I wasn't tricked into paying up for the 964 because I saw a BAT sale. The car is worth that to me. If I can sell if for 400k tomorrow, I will. I am sure I can sell if for what I paid.
Just because there are apparently shady things going on doesn't mean that the end-user prices are artifically high. If Porsche didn't discourage or prevent dealers from pricing at the market, buyers would all have time to look at the cars, configure, etc. And the buyer with the highest willingness to pay would get the car. Instead, Porsche has created a system where dealers can't freely charge what the market will bear. So in come all of these shenanigans, middlemen, etc. And the ultimate allocation process to end-users is messy and inefficient.
Still, I am not convinced that prices are too high because of any of this. People like the cars, and are willing to pay a ton for them. BAT is probably <5% of the GT3 market, so I don't really think that the rest of us are all getting ripped off when we are willing pay big money for the cars, or when we don't sell what we have for that same big money.
The practical implications are - real consumer market value is probably 20-30k over MSRP, dealers are trying to hold the market hostage at $70-100k over MSRP, and betting that stockpiling cars now, with 992.2 production ramping down and RS production ending, will get the market to come back to them later in 2026. If the current market was what dealers were pricing at, 10% of total 992.2 production wouldn't be sitting in dealer inventory.
In the end, it's just a really slimy way for dealers to make an extra $30k.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 5,682
Likes: 3,005
The biggest issue with ADM is for how LITTLE work dealers do and value they add, how much of the % profit they pocket. These guys have community college degrees at best, some are HS dropouts and yet on a $350k purchase, they take up 15% of the profit for simply putting on tight suits and showing you their big biceps. It is utter bull**** and legal blackmail. Dealers have the privilege of assigning allocations and they are salesman. They add no value to the development of these cars and conversely, create such a terrible brand image issue for us.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,283
Likes: 428
From: Colorado Springs
Looks like someone blew the dog whistle for karens. Never in my life have I seen so many people actually defend paying over sticker. I mean honestly, I’ve met and talked to a lot of people who paid over but weren’t happy about that but loved their cars so they were ok with it because they thought they were paying market value.
‘’Now it looks like there are super karens out there saying basically it’s ok that market manipulation is ok (eg fraud) because everyone else is doing this, my career has moved on nicely, or here’s the best one, my 401k is through the roof so I should be happy to get ripped off because I’ve won at life.
what a bunch of garbage. If I had someone in my office even hinting at some of this stuff I would fire them. This may be news to some people but it doesn’t matter how rich people are, nobody likes to get ripped off.
Ps: nobody likes these smarmy little know it all sales people who think they are really doing me a favor by talking to me about how lucky I am to be offered this or that.
‘’Now it looks like there are super karens out there saying basically it’s ok that market manipulation is ok (eg fraud) because everyone else is doing this, my career has moved on nicely, or here’s the best one, my 401k is through the roof so I should be happy to get ripped off because I’ve won at life.
what a bunch of garbage. If I had someone in my office even hinting at some of this stuff I would fire them. This may be news to some people but it doesn’t matter how rich people are, nobody likes to get ripped off.
Ps: nobody likes these smarmy little know it all sales people who think they are really doing me a favor by talking to me about how lucky I am to be offered this or that.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 463
Likes: 655
From: North Carolina, USA
The four 992.2 GT3 on the lot are "used" CPO with less than 200 miles. $70-$100K over MSRP ask.
CarFax shows them all funneled through 2-3 dealerships and probably in exchange for one of their allocations they were supposed to sell at MSRP.
Since they are a "new car MSRP" dealer per company policy. What a joke...
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,441
Likes: 1,043
From: los angeles and nyc
"Let's follow the steps. A GT3 was “purchased’ at a manufactured comp price with BAT"
Thank you for all of your hard work in diving into this data morass. I've read your posts fairly carefully and perhaps I'm a moron, but because BAT auctions are open to everyone, how is the sales price a "manufactured comp price". While it's apparently a dealers playground ( thanks to your good work), that doesn't prevent me or any third party from jumping in and bidding.
Is the thesis that dealers are just bidding the cars up artificially so John Q Public can't buy at a lower price? That seems a risky fools errand to me- Dealers presumably bid only to the point that makes economic sense- they have financing (or cost of capital) and overhead and admin costs to cover and are they really going to overpay on the theory that they are setting a benchmark price that some idiot will come in and pay??
I get how this is a way for Porsche dealers getting ADM by having the car "washed" through BAT, but that still doesn't mean that the bidding dealers manufactured a price as I could bid on the same car. And I assume that they wouldn't pay a price over what would be required to flip it at a profit.
Thanks again for your efforts on all this. However, while I may need to be put in a corner with the Dunce cap, I'm not quite seeing the thesis.
Thank you for all of your hard work in diving into this data morass. I've read your posts fairly carefully and perhaps I'm a moron, but because BAT auctions are open to everyone, how is the sales price a "manufactured comp price". While it's apparently a dealers playground ( thanks to your good work), that doesn't prevent me or any third party from jumping in and bidding.
Is the thesis that dealers are just bidding the cars up artificially so John Q Public can't buy at a lower price? That seems a risky fools errand to me- Dealers presumably bid only to the point that makes economic sense- they have financing (or cost of capital) and overhead and admin costs to cover and are they really going to overpay on the theory that they are setting a benchmark price that some idiot will come in and pay??
I get how this is a way for Porsche dealers getting ADM by having the car "washed" through BAT, but that still doesn't mean that the bidding dealers manufactured a price as I could bid on the same car. And I assume that they wouldn't pay a price over what would be required to flip it at a profit.
Thanks again for your efforts on all this. However, while I may need to be put in a corner with the Dunce cap, I'm not quite seeing the thesis.
Porsche dealers going on public auctions and paying full retail is new behavior.
Also alot of very odd bidding on BAT...I know 100% that some of the biggest sellers are part of the manipulation.
Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 37
Likes: 36
From: Australia
I am stating the obvious here, but when the end consumer continues to pay the inflated price, then these cars will continue to sell at that price. The demand still exists. I'm sure part of the price rise from 992.1 to 992.2 was Porsche AG witnessing the ADMs and flippers making a killing and realising that they can charge more for these cars. Surely Porsche will continue to ramp the pricing up until the market cannot stomach any additional premium?
My concern is that the GT3 is becoming too expensive for many to track, which is a real shame. I have owned every generation of GT3 and tracked the living daylights out of them. For me, the whole appeal of the GT3 is that it is competitive, reliable and backed by a factory warranty, even when tracked hard. Over the years I have witnessed so many GT3s tracked hard, all day in the Australian heat without any issues and then legally drive home. I can't say the same about McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. However, the risk of crashing such an expensive car into the fence at a race track is becoming prohibitive.
The use case for the GT3 seems to be evolving into a less track focused weapon and more 'Cars and Coffee' proposition where people get excited about PTS, deviated stitching and the colour leather they have selected for the interior, as opposed to setting a new PB at the local track. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it is very different to when I was tracking my first 996 GT3 many years ago. I have a 992.2 with clubsport pack on order primarily for use at track days, but fear with rising costs, I may have to look to another brand for my next track car. Apologies if I have gone off topic.
My concern is that the GT3 is becoming too expensive for many to track, which is a real shame. I have owned every generation of GT3 and tracked the living daylights out of them. For me, the whole appeal of the GT3 is that it is competitive, reliable and backed by a factory warranty, even when tracked hard. Over the years I have witnessed so many GT3s tracked hard, all day in the Australian heat without any issues and then legally drive home. I can't say the same about McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. However, the risk of crashing such an expensive car into the fence at a race track is becoming prohibitive.
The use case for the GT3 seems to be evolving into a less track focused weapon and more 'Cars and Coffee' proposition where people get excited about PTS, deviated stitching and the colour leather they have selected for the interior, as opposed to setting a new PB at the local track. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it is very different to when I was tracking my first 996 GT3 many years ago. I have a 992.2 with clubsport pack on order primarily for use at track days, but fear with rising costs, I may have to look to another brand for my next track car. Apologies if I have gone off topic.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 3,246
Likes: 2,269
From: NoVA
I think MSRP used to mean a lot more than it does these days. It's become a game for the marketing group and no longer a standard calculation.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2025
Posts: 278
Likes: 181
From: Arizona
i wonder if BAT cuts them slack (ie: doesn't charge the 5% buyer fee)
Also - if you look at certain BAT auctions, dealers will bid the car's price up, eventually step out, leaving some poor guy bidding a higher price just to win the auction
then when you check that dealer's website, you see that they have similar cars in their inventory that had been sitting for months unsold. I wonder if they are bidding up similar cars on auction just to tell their prospective buyers "look at what that one sold for on BAT" and justify their stupid price
Also - if you look at certain BAT auctions, dealers will bid the car's price up, eventually step out, leaving some poor guy bidding a higher price just to win the auction
then when you check that dealer's website, you see that they have similar cars in their inventory that had been sitting for months unsold. I wonder if they are bidding up similar cars on auction just to tell their prospective buyers "look at what that one sold for on BAT" and justify their stupid price
To the other point: there are thousands of independent car dealers who love P cars with a handful that actively participate at BaT. Used car dealers, even the independent specialty guys, have to purchase inventory to sell product and make money. It makes sense that you’ll see a lot of the same names of buyers who put in bids on GT3’s that end up not purchasing because the price got past where they feel the risk to reward is worth it for them. If you look at it enough you’ll see that sometimes they win and their bidding history shows bidding (and winning) on all sorts of expensive cars and not exclusive to P cars.
A trillion times over: I very much dislike dealers, especially car dealers, but they are here to make money. The market is huge for GT cars with franchise dealers, independent dealers, retail buyers, retail flippers and a few car enthusiasts
The point is that shenanigans or not doesn’t matter: the “for profit” people in this market are not going to just lay over. They will do whatever they can do, legal or not, to keep their money machines operating.@chicagomarketing I am requesting again that you specify exactly what you mean when you said that BAT tried to stop you.
Originally Posted by chicagomarketing
You can reverse engineer data from BaT I got a lot of data. BAT really tried to stop me from doing this.
Last edited by PWins; Mar 15, 2026 at 11:23 PM.
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,860
Likes: 31
^
Bottom line:- Supply is rising (Porsche has to do so to satisfy shareholders); Demand is falling because core buyers will not subscribe to the current "value" premise. They have learned through many cycles. Evidence the cars for sale on Dealer lots - where are the local customers?
Bottom line:- Supply is rising (Porsche has to do so to satisfy shareholders); Demand is falling because core buyers will not subscribe to the current "value" premise. They have learned through many cycles. Evidence the cars for sale on Dealer lots - where are the local customers?
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 256
Likes: 330
These comments are similar so I’ll just add my opinion that it would be a major issue if BaT willingly participated in a scheme to boost up GT3 prices. The GT3 segment of BaT is probably less than 1% of their revenue and so if they are assisting “buyers” by not charging a BaT fee ($7,500) then that would put them in major major major major legal issues if not also criminal issues.
To the other point: there are thousands of independent car dealers who love P cars with a handful that actively participate at BaT. Used car dealers, even the independent specialty guys, have to purchase inventory to sell product and make money. It makes sense that you’ll see a lot of the same names of buyers who put in bids on GT3’s that end up not purchasing because the price got past where they feel the risk to reward is worth it for them. If you look at it enough you’ll see that sometimes they win and their bidding history shows bidding (and winning) on all sorts of expensive cars and not exclusive to P cars.
A trillion times over: I very much dislike dealers, especially car dealers, but they are here to make money. The market is huge for GT cars with franchise dealers, independent dealers, retail buyers, retail flippers and a few car enthusiasts The point is that shenanigans or not doesn’t matter: the “for profit” people in this market are not going to just lay over. They will do whatever they can do, legal or not, to keep their money machines operating.
@chicagomarketing I am requesting again that you specify exactly what you mean when you said that BAT tried to stop you.
To the other point: there are thousands of independent car dealers who love P cars with a handful that actively participate at BaT. Used car dealers, even the independent specialty guys, have to purchase inventory to sell product and make money. It makes sense that you’ll see a lot of the same names of buyers who put in bids on GT3’s that end up not purchasing because the price got past where they feel the risk to reward is worth it for them. If you look at it enough you’ll see that sometimes they win and their bidding history shows bidding (and winning) on all sorts of expensive cars and not exclusive to P cars.
A trillion times over: I very much dislike dealers, especially car dealers, but they are here to make money. The market is huge for GT cars with franchise dealers, independent dealers, retail buyers, retail flippers and a few car enthusiasts
The point is that shenanigans or not doesn’t matter: the “for profit” people in this market are not going to just lay over. They will do whatever they can do, legal or not, to keep their money machines operating.@chicagomarketing I am requesting again that you specify exactly what you mean when you said that BAT tried to stop you.
In reference to your other points now that you have my attention:
All you need is one. One sets the ceiling. That in turn becomes "THE" comparable. It then moves through CPO pricing, wholesale auctions, dealer software — which is a new data point that I believe I just validated. Until it looks like independent market data three states away. You don't need high volume to infect a market. You just need to set the high, or patient zero. And it explains why we see inventory sitting and moving from NEW → CPO with 390 miles.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 920
Likes: 543
From: TN
Someone new to the 992 market, who bought a used 992,1 GT3 this past saturday, what stuck me as very odd at the dealership was the numerous 992.2 with less than 1000 mile selling as new. That was very odd. The whole GT and RS market feels like a bit like a Ponzi scheme. As long as buyers keep coming with new money we will be good. When the music stops we will see.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2025
Posts: 278
Likes: 181
From: Arizona
Anecdotal but I went into my local P dealership about a month ago and they had a white winged 992.2 GT3 on the floor. The sticker on it had a “market adjustment” line item of $75,000.
I just looked and it is no longer on their site or their sister store site.
Certainly local customers exist otherwise there would be major panic of all of the hundreds of P dealership stakeholders.
I agree though about the inventory concern. PAG did a big batch right out of the gates of the .1 as well and then subsequently slowed production so maybe that is the case for the .2.
I also agree that PAG needs to please stakeholders but their USA dealer network is also part of that group. If they flood the market where it can’t get absorbed in a reasonable amount of time that will really put strain on what I suspect is already a strained business from their EV flop.
Who knows.
I just looked and it is no longer on their site or their sister store site.
Certainly local customers exist otherwise there would be major panic of all of the hundreds of P dealership stakeholders.
I agree though about the inventory concern. PAG did a big batch right out of the gates of the .1 as well and then subsequently slowed production so maybe that is the case for the .2.
I also agree that PAG needs to please stakeholders but their USA dealer network is also part of that group. If they flood the market where it can’t get absorbed in a reasonable amount of time that will really put strain on what I suspect is already a strained business from their EV flop.
Who knows.