GT3 992.2 Prices crashing? MSRP Coming?
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 2,492
Likes: 5,412
Good piece of analysis . . however, this strategy only really works in a rising market where they can artificially generate scarcity. Also, eventually all these dealer-to-dealer trades end up being purchased by a legit consumer, who probably believes that this pricing is "market". However, while they are jacking up pricing, someone is holding the bag at the actual BAT pricing, unless they are truly unethical and don't really transact at that price - IE dealer-buyer and dealer-seller transact at a lower price. My bet is that this is the case - the deal closes on BAT, but there really is no exchange of funds at this artificial price.
It does seem to me that the market is softening up, but quite a way from free fall. And, I do believe the .2 pricing has gotten way ahead of itself, and without these kinds of manipulations, it seems unlikely that there would still be ADMs, especially given the rate that Porsche is producing this model.
In the end of the day, who effing cares - it's an amazing machine, and while we all will most likely overpay, at least we end up with something we love and that brings us joy. Truly time is the most valuable resource, and my strategy is to focus on what I like, and let the pricing cards fall where they may. But then again, I'm only buying wrecked ones . . .
It does seem to me that the market is softening up, but quite a way from free fall. And, I do believe the .2 pricing has gotten way ahead of itself, and without these kinds of manipulations, it seems unlikely that there would still be ADMs, especially given the rate that Porsche is producing this model.
In the end of the day, who effing cares - it's an amazing machine, and while we all will most likely overpay, at least we end up with something we love and that brings us joy. Truly time is the most valuable resource, and my strategy is to focus on what I like, and let the pricing cards fall where they may. But then again, I'm only buying wrecked ones . . .
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 782
Likes: 387
I was wondering about BAT. A lot of folks on here use it like the bible. I was thinking...I wonder if its real. So I built a custom app that scraped all the data from GT cars going back to March 2022. The nice thing is with cars...VINs don't lie. It is a unique 17-digit serial number we can trace throughout the system. Once I got the vins I ran them through a lot of different sites like Cars.com, CarGurus, AutoTrader, iSeeCars, Porsche Finder, and a bunch of dealer inventory sites to see where these cars actually ended up.
TLDR: franchise dealers are on both sides of these BaT sales. They give allocations to independents, the independents sell on BaT, and then franchise dealers buy the cars back and CPO them. BaT is the laundromat in the middle that turns dealer-to-dealer flips into "market comps." I always assumed flippers were a separate cohort of folks. They aren't. And I am not saying all porsche dealers are in on this but quite a few are. I am sorry this post got long. I've been researching this thing for weeks. That's where I've been if you're wondering.
People keep citing BaT for 992.2 pricing. There are only three non-RS 992.2 GT3 sales on BaT — two Tourings and one base GT3. Two are dealer flips. The only real one was $310k. Both dealer-listed Tourings sold to accounts less than seven months old. The $384k buyer created his account the same month he bought the car, titled it in Connecticut — about 90 miles from the franchise that allocated it — and the CARFAX still shows 14 miles as of three months after purchase. Not a single mile added. Oh did I mention I pulled several carfaxes? I did. The BAT comp listings did not pass the smell test. And others have talked to me and said the same.
WHERE THE SELL SIDE CARS COME FROM
47% of all 139 sales are from dealers, but here's the thing: there's not a single Porsche franchise dealer selling on BaT in this entire dataset. Every seller is an independent. These are independent dealer principals who are getting GT3 allocations from Porsche franchise dealers and listing them on BaT.
WOB is a consignment shop in Thousand Oaks run by Robert Dietz. Their website (wobcars.com) openly advertises what they do: "You can count on us to have your car sold at a premium price." They call themselves "the largest curator of cars" on BaT, say they sell 50+ vehicles a month on the platform, and work on commission that scales with the value of the car. They even brag about setting the record for the highest-selling 992 GT3 Touring on BaT. This is all on their website. They've sold 12 GT3s on BaT for $4.1M. That's one operator doing almost 10% of the entire BaT 992 GT3 market by dollar volume. I looked at who's buying WOB's GT3s. Out of 12 buyers, three are confirmed dealer pipelines — Freddy_308 (cars at Eurocars OC), meepcars (Hendrick → Porsche SLO), Shahabi (Cardinale → Porsche Edison). That's $863k in confirmed dealer volume — 21% of WOB's GT3 output going to accounts I can tie directly to dealer lots. Four more buyers look like dealers too — JimDiaz (same-month account, $384k), Petrus2000 (no account data available), SRNYC (6-month account, $327k), and speedman9000 (22-month account, $457k). Two more — Ksw ($447k) and Andrew109 ($270k) — already have their VINs back on resale platforms. That leaves three of WOB's 12 GT3 buyers who appear to be actual people keeping a car. And sure you can "purchase" a car and flip it as a consumer, but please if you're pretending to be a consumer and its ending up on a dealer lot...
1600veloce is an official BaT listing partner out of North Salem, NY. Four GT3 sales. North Salem is about 30 minutes from New Country Porsche of Greenwich, CT — the franchise that PDI'd the $346k 992.2 Touring. The CARFAX on that car shows the first owner titled it in Greenwich, same town as the franchise. 1600veloce listed it on BaT from right across the state line. Same franchise-next-to-consigner geography as WOB and Rusnak in Thousand Oaks.
Silverarrowcarsltd is an exotic dealer in Beverly Hills. Three sales.
And then there's rennster. I looked this guy up. His name is Sascha. His website (rennster.com) lays out his whole career. He was Director of Customer Experience and VIP Sales at Beverly Hills Porsche from 2016 to 2021. He managed VIP client relationships and the acquisition process at the #1 Porsche dealer in the country for new car sales. He left the franchise in 2021 and now operates as an independent broker, selling GT3s on BaT under his own name. Same service, same clients, no franchise oversight. I don't think his contact list changed when his title did.
These cars are showing up at WOB and 1600veloce with anywhere from 14 to a few thousand miles. The lowest-mile ones were never really driven. The independent principals got the allocations from the franchise, titled the cars, and listed them on BaT. By the time it shows up on BaT the franchise name is nowhere near the listing.
And the dealer premium tells you this isn't random. On 992.1 Tourings, dealers averaged $298k versus $276k for private party sellers — a $23k premium across 27 dealer sales and 35 "private sales". On 992.1 base GT3s, dealers averaged $260k versus $252k from consumers — about $8k more. The Touring gap is wider because the product mix was rarer in the 992.1 generation and dealers knew it. Porsche made fewer Tourings relative to base GT3s in the 992.1 run, and the consignment guys knew what they had. That kind of consistency across 60+ Touring transactions doesn't happen by accident. The sell side is coordinated.
WHO'S BUYING THESE CARS
You can reverse engineer data from BaT I got a lot of data. BAT really tried to stop me from doing this. I got buyer info on 130 of the 139 sales and a few accounts were hard to miss.
"Freddy_308" bought five GT3s for $1.56M total. His account was created in November 2025, so it was between zero and three months old for every purchase. Five GT cars in 103 days. I tracked all five VINs. Every single one ended up at Eurocars OC in Costa Mesa:
"Psoomekh" bought three GT3 RS for $1.21M. All three from dealers. I found one of them (VIN ...78209, bought from rennster for $405,888) at Ryan Friedman Motor Cars in Glen Cove, NY for $429,995. The CARFAX on that car shows it passed through EuroCar in Costa Mesa at one point in its history — the same dealer where Freddy_308's five cars ended up. Two different BaT buyer accounts, same dealer showing up in both.
"BizarreDakar" bought three cars for $987k — a GT3 RS and two GT3 Tourings. All from dealers.
When I went through all 130 sales and flagged both sides for dealer accounts and used machine modeling: 73% of BaT GT3 transactions had a dealer or dealer-linked account on at least one side. Almost a third were dealer-to-dealer with no consumer involved at all. Only 27% looked like two actual people trading a car. And look dealers are allowed to sell cars on BAT. But when you register as a consumer and listing a GT3 when you're really a dealer...
ALLOCATION WASHING
Franchise dealers can't flip GT3 allocations on BaT obviously. Its an auction house. Porsche AG watches for that and will pull future allocations if they catch you. So instead the car goes sideways — the franchise sells it to someone, that person or entity titles it, and then a consignment guy like WOB lists it on BaT. By the time you see it on the platform there's no franchise name anywhere near it.
I pulled CARFAXes on seven VINs to see what's actually happening between the franchise and BaT. Six of them had a corporate entity, a commercial title, a fleet registration, or a Montana LLC in there somewhere. One was clean.
Here's the $384k Touring. Porsche Huntington did the PDI on Long Island on July 17th. On August 4th, Huntington sold the car. Three days later, a corporate entity in Irvington, NJ titled it at 13 miles. One week after that, West Coast Exotic Cars in California listed it in their system. WOB ran the BaT auction. JimDiaz bought it on a same-month account for $384k and titled it in Gales Ferry, Connecticut — about 90 miles from Huntington. 14 miles on the odometer. Five entities touched this car and it gained one mile. I don't think it ever left the northeast. West Coast Exotic Cars is in California. The car isn't. They're on the paperwork so that when you look up the BaT listing, you see WOB in Thousand Oaks selling to JimDiaz. You don't see Porsche Huntington.
The $405k record Touring had two commercial owners before WOB listed it. Freddy_308's $243k GT3 had six owners and a Montana LLC title, and the CARFAX shows EuroCar Costa Mesa offering it for sale one day after the BaT hammer dropped.
COMP (COMPARABLE) WASHING
So WOB sells a 14-mile Touring to an account created that same month for $384k. BaT logs it as a completed sale, and from there that number ends up everywhere — Hagerty, Classic.com, this thread, dealer lots pricing their own GT3s off it. But we just went through the CARFAX on that car and there's no real buyer. WOB consigned it, the buyer made his account the same month he bought it, the car has 14 miles on it, and the guy titled it 90 miles from the franchise that allocated it. There was no consumer on either side of that sale. That's what I mean by comp washing — you've got a $384k "market comp" for the 992.2 Touring and neither party was a retail customer.
PORSCHE FRANCHISE DEALERS ARE BUYING THESE CARS BACK
So I started pulling up franchise dealer websites to see if any of these BaT VINs were sitting on lots. They were. These listings were active as of two weeks ago. I've been writing this for a while now.
Go pull up Porsche Main Line in PA right now. VIN ...70914. Porsche Approved CPO, $291,466. That car sold on BaT for $246,500. Main Line tacked on $45k.
South Shore is a different story. VIN ...72753 didn't go through BaT at all — I pulled the CARFAX and this car was allocated at Porsche Centre Winnipeg in Canada, got imported through Derby Line, Vermont, then titled as a corporate fleet vehicle in Little Rock, Arkansas. Thirteen days after the Arkansas title, it passed a NY inspection. Then South Shore Porsche in Freeport, NY (McGovern Auto Group) sold it as Porsche Approved CPO on October 31, 2024. Manitoba to Arkansas to Long Island. It ended up on BaT a year later and sold for $410k.
VIN ...70908 — WOB sold it on BaT for $307,510. Next place it shows up is Hendrick Dodge Cary at $334,990. That's a Dodge dealership with a GT3 Touring on the lot for $28k more than BaT, but Hendrick also owns Porsche Charlotte and Porsche Southpoint Durham so it makes more sense when you see it that way. It moved again to Porsche SLO at $314,888, still $7k above BaT.
VIN ...70526 — WOB sold it on BaT for $312k to "Shahabi." Showed up at Cardinale, which owns Porsche Bakersfield, then crossed the country to Porsche Edison in NJ.
Porsche SLO is also Cardinale. That means Cardinale Automotive Group — a 21-dealership group across California, Arizona, and Nevada — shows up on two different VINs moving in opposite directions. Look at these two flows:
VIN ...70526: WOB lists on BaT ($312k) → "Shahabi" buys → car lands at Cardinale/Bakersfield → moves to Porsche Edison (NJ). Cardinale is the source.
VIN ...70908: WOB lists on BaT ($307k) → "meepcars" buys → Hendrick ($335k) → wholesale auction → Cardinale/Porsche SLO ($315k). Cardinale is the destination.
Both cars sold by WOB on BaT. Both bought through intermediary accounts. One flows out of Cardinale, one flows in. And at every step, the price went up. It's almost like a dealer trade, but it's FRAMED and put on BAT to create a comp. Whose bidding up these cars? Dealers. With a mix of consumer and dealer accounts.
Worth noting where VIN ...70908 started. The carfax shows its pre-delivery inspection was done at Rusnak/Westlake Porsche in Thousand Oaks — the same city where WOB operates, minutes apart off the 101. Porsche Westlake has been the #1 certified pre-owned Porsche Center in the country for six straight years. So you have the nation's top CPO Porsche franchise and BaT's highest-volume GT3 consignment broker sharing a zip code, and one of the carfaxes I pulled shows a car PDI'd at Rusnak before it showed up on BaT through WOB. I'm not saying Rusnak is coordinating with WOB. I'm saying that car rolled off the truck at Rusnak/Westlake, and the next time it appeared publicly it was a WOB consignment on BaT selling for $307k to an intermediary account.
None of these franchise dealers bought on BaT under their own name. They all used intermediaries. If it's a straightforward inventory purchase, put your name on it. They didn't. They're selling these cars as Porsche Approved CPO at prices that started at MSRP, got marked up through BaT, and got marked up again on the franchise lot.
Some of these names should ring a bell on this forum. Porsche South Shore has a "BEWARE OF SOUTH SHORE PORSCHE" thread right here on Rennlist (https://rennlist.com/forums/east-us-...e-porsche.html) — complaints about outsourcing service work to non-Porsche shops and a service manager posting customer information on forums. Porsche Main Line has a 15-page thread about allocation games on a GT2 RS (https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...n-line-15.html). These are multi-franchise groups — Hendrick is one of the largest dealer groups in the country, McGovern runs multiple Porsche locations, Cardinale has 21 dealerships, RDS Automotive runs Main Line. They have the infrastructure to move cars between lots and source through intermediaries without anyone connecting the dots.
THE ADM
Follow the money. A Porsche franchise gets a GT3 at MSRP — base around $255K, typically $275-295k as equipped. An independent principal gets the allocation from the franchise, lists it on BaT, and it sells for $384k. That's over MSRP captured through BaT depending on spec. The ADM never showed up on a window sticker.
BaT is doing two jobs for these dealers. It's setting the comps — when WOB sells a Touring for $384k or $405k, Hagerty indexes it, Classic.com tracks it, Rennlist cites it, and every dealer lot in the country uses it to justify what they charge. The high comp makes every GT3 priced below it look like a fair deal.
And it's sourcing the inventory. VIN ...70914 went from BaT at $246k to Porsche Main Line CPO at $291k. VIN ...70908 went from BaT at $307k through Hendrick to Porsche SLO CPO at $315k. The franchise dealers are buying through intermediary accounts at one price and retailing as CPO at another, and the spread is justified by the comps their own network created on the sell side.
Look at the Tourings specifically, that's where most of the franchise CPO action is. Freddy_308 paid $266-277k on BaT for Tourings that Eurocars OC listed at $300-305k. The BaT price doesn't reflect what a consumer would pay at retail. It reflects what a dealer will pay to stock a CPO unit.
I already covered what the CARFAXes show in the allocation washing section. The two comps that anchor GT3 pricing on BaT ($384k) and ($405k) both came from corporate or commercial entities, not enthusiasts selling cars they drove. The $405k car was serviced at Beverly Hills Porsche before being listed by WOB. That's the same dealership where rennster spent five years running VIP sales. And look, corporate entities are OK - a lot of you use Montana for registration (or used to), but it's all about the timing of how these things happen, and the carfax confirms what a lot of us suspected. Timing matters.
WHAT THIS ACTUALLY IS
This isn't speculation. I have the VINs, the carfaxes, the BaT transaction data, and the dealer lot listings. Rennster managed VIP sales at Beverly Hills Porsche and now sells those same cars on BaT "independently". All five of Freddy_308's purchases went through Eurocars OC with $184k in combined markups. Three Porsche franchise dealers are holding BaT GT3 VINs as CPO inventory, and South Shore sourced a fourth through the same kind of corporate fleet routing. 73% of these transactions had a dealer-linked account involved.
The markup didn't go away. It went underground. This isn't an ADM, an Additional Dealer Markup you see on a window sticker. This is a DMM, a Dealer Manufactured Markup, built through a controlled BaT transaction and laundered into "market data." If a dealer says, "Well, the market," and if you ask or dig deeper, and the dealer says BAT, you know you got a RAT. I will state, though, I only ran Porsche GT cars - I left other brands alone, but one could speculate. Moving forward, I will not use BAT as a reference price for any Porsche GT car. The system has been scammed.
Dealers trading with each other and calling it a market is not a market....
TLDR: franchise dealers are on both sides of these BaT sales. They give allocations to independents, the independents sell on BaT, and then franchise dealers buy the cars back and CPO them. BaT is the laundromat in the middle that turns dealer-to-dealer flips into "market comps." I always assumed flippers were a separate cohort of folks. They aren't. And I am not saying all porsche dealers are in on this but quite a few are. I am sorry this post got long. I've been researching this thing for weeks. That's where I've been if you're wondering.
People keep citing BaT for 992.2 pricing. There are only three non-RS 992.2 GT3 sales on BaT — two Tourings and one base GT3. Two are dealer flips. The only real one was $310k. Both dealer-listed Tourings sold to accounts less than seven months old. The $384k buyer created his account the same month he bought the car, titled it in Connecticut — about 90 miles from the franchise that allocated it — and the CARFAX still shows 14 miles as of three months after purchase. Not a single mile added. Oh did I mention I pulled several carfaxes? I did. The BAT comp listings did not pass the smell test. And others have talked to me and said the same.
WHERE THE SELL SIDE CARS COME FROM
47% of all 139 sales are from dealers, but here's the thing: there's not a single Porsche franchise dealer selling on BaT in this entire dataset. Every seller is an independent. These are independent dealer principals who are getting GT3 allocations from Porsche franchise dealers and listing them on BaT.
WOB is a consignment shop in Thousand Oaks run by Robert Dietz. Their website (wobcars.com) openly advertises what they do: "You can count on us to have your car sold at a premium price." They call themselves "the largest curator of cars" on BaT, say they sell 50+ vehicles a month on the platform, and work on commission that scales with the value of the car. They even brag about setting the record for the highest-selling 992 GT3 Touring on BaT. This is all on their website. They've sold 12 GT3s on BaT for $4.1M. That's one operator doing almost 10% of the entire BaT 992 GT3 market by dollar volume. I looked at who's buying WOB's GT3s. Out of 12 buyers, three are confirmed dealer pipelines — Freddy_308 (cars at Eurocars OC), meepcars (Hendrick → Porsche SLO), Shahabi (Cardinale → Porsche Edison). That's $863k in confirmed dealer volume — 21% of WOB's GT3 output going to accounts I can tie directly to dealer lots. Four more buyers look like dealers too — JimDiaz (same-month account, $384k), Petrus2000 (no account data available), SRNYC (6-month account, $327k), and speedman9000 (22-month account, $457k). Two more — Ksw ($447k) and Andrew109 ($270k) — already have their VINs back on resale platforms. That leaves three of WOB's 12 GT3 buyers who appear to be actual people keeping a car. And sure you can "purchase" a car and flip it as a consumer, but please if you're pretending to be a consumer and its ending up on a dealer lot...
1600veloce is an official BaT listing partner out of North Salem, NY. Four GT3 sales. North Salem is about 30 minutes from New Country Porsche of Greenwich, CT — the franchise that PDI'd the $346k 992.2 Touring. The CARFAX on that car shows the first owner titled it in Greenwich, same town as the franchise. 1600veloce listed it on BaT from right across the state line. Same franchise-next-to-consigner geography as WOB and Rusnak in Thousand Oaks.
Silverarrowcarsltd is an exotic dealer in Beverly Hills. Three sales.
And then there's rennster. I looked this guy up. His name is Sascha. His website (rennster.com) lays out his whole career. He was Director of Customer Experience and VIP Sales at Beverly Hills Porsche from 2016 to 2021. He managed VIP client relationships and the acquisition process at the #1 Porsche dealer in the country for new car sales. He left the franchise in 2021 and now operates as an independent broker, selling GT3s on BaT under his own name. Same service, same clients, no franchise oversight. I don't think his contact list changed when his title did.
These cars are showing up at WOB and 1600veloce with anywhere from 14 to a few thousand miles. The lowest-mile ones were never really driven. The independent principals got the allocations from the franchise, titled the cars, and listed them on BaT. By the time it shows up on BaT the franchise name is nowhere near the listing.
And the dealer premium tells you this isn't random. On 992.1 Tourings, dealers averaged $298k versus $276k for private party sellers — a $23k premium across 27 dealer sales and 35 "private sales". On 992.1 base GT3s, dealers averaged $260k versus $252k from consumers — about $8k more. The Touring gap is wider because the product mix was rarer in the 992.1 generation and dealers knew it. Porsche made fewer Tourings relative to base GT3s in the 992.1 run, and the consignment guys knew what they had. That kind of consistency across 60+ Touring transactions doesn't happen by accident. The sell side is coordinated.
WHO'S BUYING THESE CARS
You can reverse engineer data from BaT I got a lot of data. BAT really tried to stop me from doing this. I got buyer info on 130 of the 139 sales and a few accounts were hard to miss.
"Freddy_308" bought five GT3s for $1.56M total. His account was created in November 2025, so it was between zero and three months old for every purchase. Five GT cars in 103 days. I tracked all five VINs. Every single one ended up at Eurocars OC in Costa Mesa:
- 2022 GT3 Touring (VIN ...70244): BaT $276,500 → Eurocars OC $299,999
- 2022 GT3 (VIN ...70709): BaT $243,000 → Eurocars OC $284,999
- 2025 GT3 RS (VIN ...78410): BaT $390,000 → Eurocars OC $424,999
- 2024 GT3 RS (VIN ...73311): BaT $385,000 → Eurocars OC $429,999
- 2022 GT3 Touring (VIN ...70158): BaT $266,000 → Eurocars OC $304,999
"Psoomekh" bought three GT3 RS for $1.21M. All three from dealers. I found one of them (VIN ...78209, bought from rennster for $405,888) at Ryan Friedman Motor Cars in Glen Cove, NY for $429,995. The CARFAX on that car shows it passed through EuroCar in Costa Mesa at one point in its history — the same dealer where Freddy_308's five cars ended up. Two different BaT buyer accounts, same dealer showing up in both.
"BizarreDakar" bought three cars for $987k — a GT3 RS and two GT3 Tourings. All from dealers.
When I went through all 130 sales and flagged both sides for dealer accounts and used machine modeling: 73% of BaT GT3 transactions had a dealer or dealer-linked account on at least one side. Almost a third were dealer-to-dealer with no consumer involved at all. Only 27% looked like two actual people trading a car. And look dealers are allowed to sell cars on BAT. But when you register as a consumer and listing a GT3 when you're really a dealer...
ALLOCATION WASHING
Franchise dealers can't flip GT3 allocations on BaT obviously. Its an auction house. Porsche AG watches for that and will pull future allocations if they catch you. So instead the car goes sideways — the franchise sells it to someone, that person or entity titles it, and then a consignment guy like WOB lists it on BaT. By the time you see it on the platform there's no franchise name anywhere near it.
I pulled CARFAXes on seven VINs to see what's actually happening between the franchise and BaT. Six of them had a corporate entity, a commercial title, a fleet registration, or a Montana LLC in there somewhere. One was clean.
Here's the $384k Touring. Porsche Huntington did the PDI on Long Island on July 17th. On August 4th, Huntington sold the car. Three days later, a corporate entity in Irvington, NJ titled it at 13 miles. One week after that, West Coast Exotic Cars in California listed it in their system. WOB ran the BaT auction. JimDiaz bought it on a same-month account for $384k and titled it in Gales Ferry, Connecticut — about 90 miles from Huntington. 14 miles on the odometer. Five entities touched this car and it gained one mile. I don't think it ever left the northeast. West Coast Exotic Cars is in California. The car isn't. They're on the paperwork so that when you look up the BaT listing, you see WOB in Thousand Oaks selling to JimDiaz. You don't see Porsche Huntington.
The $405k record Touring had two commercial owners before WOB listed it. Freddy_308's $243k GT3 had six owners and a Montana LLC title, and the CARFAX shows EuroCar Costa Mesa offering it for sale one day after the BaT hammer dropped.
COMP (COMPARABLE) WASHING
So WOB sells a 14-mile Touring to an account created that same month for $384k. BaT logs it as a completed sale, and from there that number ends up everywhere — Hagerty, Classic.com, this thread, dealer lots pricing their own GT3s off it. But we just went through the CARFAX on that car and there's no real buyer. WOB consigned it, the buyer made his account the same month he bought it, the car has 14 miles on it, and the guy titled it 90 miles from the franchise that allocated it. There was no consumer on either side of that sale. That's what I mean by comp washing — you've got a $384k "market comp" for the 992.2 Touring and neither party was a retail customer.
PORSCHE FRANCHISE DEALERS ARE BUYING THESE CARS BACK
So I started pulling up franchise dealer websites to see if any of these BaT VINs were sitting on lots. They were. These listings were active as of two weeks ago. I've been writing this for a while now.
Go pull up Porsche Main Line in PA right now. VIN ...70914. Porsche Approved CPO, $291,466. That car sold on BaT for $246,500. Main Line tacked on $45k.
South Shore is a different story. VIN ...72753 didn't go through BaT at all — I pulled the CARFAX and this car was allocated at Porsche Centre Winnipeg in Canada, got imported through Derby Line, Vermont, then titled as a corporate fleet vehicle in Little Rock, Arkansas. Thirteen days after the Arkansas title, it passed a NY inspection. Then South Shore Porsche in Freeport, NY (McGovern Auto Group) sold it as Porsche Approved CPO on October 31, 2024. Manitoba to Arkansas to Long Island. It ended up on BaT a year later and sold for $410k.
VIN ...70908 — WOB sold it on BaT for $307,510. Next place it shows up is Hendrick Dodge Cary at $334,990. That's a Dodge dealership with a GT3 Touring on the lot for $28k more than BaT, but Hendrick also owns Porsche Charlotte and Porsche Southpoint Durham so it makes more sense when you see it that way. It moved again to Porsche SLO at $314,888, still $7k above BaT.
VIN ...70526 — WOB sold it on BaT for $312k to "Shahabi." Showed up at Cardinale, which owns Porsche Bakersfield, then crossed the country to Porsche Edison in NJ.
Porsche SLO is also Cardinale. That means Cardinale Automotive Group — a 21-dealership group across California, Arizona, and Nevada — shows up on two different VINs moving in opposite directions. Look at these two flows:
VIN ...70526: WOB lists on BaT ($312k) → "Shahabi" buys → car lands at Cardinale/Bakersfield → moves to Porsche Edison (NJ). Cardinale is the source.
VIN ...70908: WOB lists on BaT ($307k) → "meepcars" buys → Hendrick ($335k) → wholesale auction → Cardinale/Porsche SLO ($315k). Cardinale is the destination.
Both cars sold by WOB on BaT. Both bought through intermediary accounts. One flows out of Cardinale, one flows in. And at every step, the price went up. It's almost like a dealer trade, but it's FRAMED and put on BAT to create a comp. Whose bidding up these cars? Dealers. With a mix of consumer and dealer accounts.
Worth noting where VIN ...70908 started. The carfax shows its pre-delivery inspection was done at Rusnak/Westlake Porsche in Thousand Oaks — the same city where WOB operates, minutes apart off the 101. Porsche Westlake has been the #1 certified pre-owned Porsche Center in the country for six straight years. So you have the nation's top CPO Porsche franchise and BaT's highest-volume GT3 consignment broker sharing a zip code, and one of the carfaxes I pulled shows a car PDI'd at Rusnak before it showed up on BaT through WOB. I'm not saying Rusnak is coordinating with WOB. I'm saying that car rolled off the truck at Rusnak/Westlake, and the next time it appeared publicly it was a WOB consignment on BaT selling for $307k to an intermediary account.
None of these franchise dealers bought on BaT under their own name. They all used intermediaries. If it's a straightforward inventory purchase, put your name on it. They didn't. They're selling these cars as Porsche Approved CPO at prices that started at MSRP, got marked up through BaT, and got marked up again on the franchise lot.
Some of these names should ring a bell on this forum. Porsche South Shore has a "BEWARE OF SOUTH SHORE PORSCHE" thread right here on Rennlist (https://rennlist.com/forums/east-us-...e-porsche.html) — complaints about outsourcing service work to non-Porsche shops and a service manager posting customer information on forums. Porsche Main Line has a 15-page thread about allocation games on a GT2 RS (https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...n-line-15.html). These are multi-franchise groups — Hendrick is one of the largest dealer groups in the country, McGovern runs multiple Porsche locations, Cardinale has 21 dealerships, RDS Automotive runs Main Line. They have the infrastructure to move cars between lots and source through intermediaries without anyone connecting the dots.
THE ADM
Follow the money. A Porsche franchise gets a GT3 at MSRP — base around $255K, typically $275-295k as equipped. An independent principal gets the allocation from the franchise, lists it on BaT, and it sells for $384k. That's over MSRP captured through BaT depending on spec. The ADM never showed up on a window sticker.
BaT is doing two jobs for these dealers. It's setting the comps — when WOB sells a Touring for $384k or $405k, Hagerty indexes it, Classic.com tracks it, Rennlist cites it, and every dealer lot in the country uses it to justify what they charge. The high comp makes every GT3 priced below it look like a fair deal.
And it's sourcing the inventory. VIN ...70914 went from BaT at $246k to Porsche Main Line CPO at $291k. VIN ...70908 went from BaT at $307k through Hendrick to Porsche SLO CPO at $315k. The franchise dealers are buying through intermediary accounts at one price and retailing as CPO at another, and the spread is justified by the comps their own network created on the sell side.
Look at the Tourings specifically, that's where most of the franchise CPO action is. Freddy_308 paid $266-277k on BaT for Tourings that Eurocars OC listed at $300-305k. The BaT price doesn't reflect what a consumer would pay at retail. It reflects what a dealer will pay to stock a CPO unit.
I already covered what the CARFAXes show in the allocation washing section. The two comps that anchor GT3 pricing on BaT ($384k) and ($405k) both came from corporate or commercial entities, not enthusiasts selling cars they drove. The $405k car was serviced at Beverly Hills Porsche before being listed by WOB. That's the same dealership where rennster spent five years running VIP sales. And look, corporate entities are OK - a lot of you use Montana for registration (or used to), but it's all about the timing of how these things happen, and the carfax confirms what a lot of us suspected. Timing matters.
WHAT THIS ACTUALLY IS
This isn't speculation. I have the VINs, the carfaxes, the BaT transaction data, and the dealer lot listings. Rennster managed VIP sales at Beverly Hills Porsche and now sells those same cars on BaT "independently". All five of Freddy_308's purchases went through Eurocars OC with $184k in combined markups. Three Porsche franchise dealers are holding BaT GT3 VINs as CPO inventory, and South Shore sourced a fourth through the same kind of corporate fleet routing. 73% of these transactions had a dealer-linked account involved.
The markup didn't go away. It went underground. This isn't an ADM, an Additional Dealer Markup you see on a window sticker. This is a DMM, a Dealer Manufactured Markup, built through a controlled BaT transaction and laundered into "market data." If a dealer says, "Well, the market," and if you ask or dig deeper, and the dealer says BAT, you know you got a RAT. I will state, though, I only ran Porsche GT cars - I left other brands alone, but one could speculate. Moving forward, I will not use BAT as a reference price for any Porsche GT car. The system has been scammed.
Dealers trading with each other and calling it a market is not a market....
Someone needs to make this a separate thread and sticky this!!
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,421
Likes: 1,066
From: Santa Monica
Yes sir, brand new. Still got a pic/vid of it on my iPhone from that day. Dec 20, 2019 and it was still unsold. They would have for sure done 35k off tbh, apparently people in that area just didn’t buy manuals. They had a Carrera T with a 105 sticker they’d sell for 85k same day as well. Covid changed a lot
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 14
Likes: 53
Chicagomarketing,
Incredible investigative work!!! Appreciate your time and analysis very much. I had some doubts of your initial analysis, but I eat crow now.
For your data: Last week, one of the SoCal dealers you mentioned offered me a GT3T ED allocation at $40k ADM and pre trade-in my '23 GTS 2C manual at MSRP. I think I could have lowered the ADM by 5 to 10k, but did not proceed.
Incredible investigative work!!! Appreciate your time and analysis very much. I had some doubts of your initial analysis, but I eat crow now.
For your data: Last week, one of the SoCal dealers you mentioned offered me a GT3T ED allocation at $40k ADM and pre trade-in my '23 GTS 2C manual at MSRP. I think I could have lowered the ADM by 5 to 10k, but did not proceed.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,175
Likes: 510
From: Connecticut
I think this is interesting but don't think this sort of activity causes prices to be higher or means that the market is about to fall. It is a consequence of the reality that the car is worth more than MSRP and Porsche doesn't let its dealers freely sell new cars at market prices. So cars have to bounce around to settle in the hands of end users.
if the market for these crashes, this will go away. It is not that the absence of this activity would cause lower prices.
I do agree that more cars sitting in the hands of dealers or people planning to flip increases the risk of a crash though, because it is a form of future supply.
if the market for these crashes, this will go away. It is not that the absence of this activity would cause lower prices.
I do agree that more cars sitting in the hands of dealers or people planning to flip increases the risk of a crash though, because it is a form of future supply.
Instructor
Joined: Mar 2023
Posts: 175
Likes: 225
Good piece of analysis . . however, this strategy only really works in a rising market where they can artificially generate scarcity. Also, eventually all these dealer-to-dealer trades end up being purchased by a legit consumer, who probably believes that this pricing is "market". However, while they are jacking up pricing, someone is holding the bag at the actual BAT pricing, unless they are truly unethical and don't really transact at that price - IE dealer-buyer and dealer-seller transact at a lower price. My bet is that this is the case - the deal closes on BAT, but there really is no exchange of funds at this artificial price.
It does seem to me that the market is softening up, but quite a way from free fall. And, I do believe the .2 pricing has gotten way ahead of itself, and without these kinds of manipulations, it seems unlikely that there would still be ADMs, especially given the rate that Porsche is producing this model.
In the end of the day, who effing cares - it's an amazing machine, and while we all will most likely overpay, at least we end up with something we love and that brings us joy. Truly time is the most valuable resource, and my strategy is to focus on what I like, and let the pricing cards fall where they may. But then again, I'm only buying wrecked ones . . .
It does seem to me that the market is softening up, but quite a way from free fall. And, I do believe the .2 pricing has gotten way ahead of itself, and without these kinds of manipulations, it seems unlikely that there would still be ADMs, especially given the rate that Porsche is producing this model.
In the end of the day, who effing cares - it's an amazing machine, and while we all will most likely overpay, at least we end up with something we love and that brings us joy. Truly time is the most valuable resource, and my strategy is to focus on what I like, and let the pricing cards fall where they may. But then again, I'm only buying wrecked ones . . .
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,094
Likes: 2,216
From: EU
Well be definition it does, because you'd be taking away the highest bidder on every auction they "won". Whoever didn't win was bidding... less. How much of a difference would be hypothetical.
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 5,884
Likes: 7,715
From: Ohio
It may not signal that prices are crashing, but you can’t refute the influence public auctions have on perceptions.
Just think about the Mecum Kissimmee auction a few weeks ago. Everyone remotely interested in cars were like, did you see what the orange 918 sold for? Did you see what the GTO David Lee bought sold for $38m?
I confident these events (auctions) come up for discussion amongst sales advisors with GT customers to shape their minds.
Just think about the Mecum Kissimmee auction a few weeks ago. Everyone remotely interested in cars were like, did you see what the orange 918 sold for? Did you see what the GTO David Lee bought sold for $38m?
I confident these events (auctions) come up for discussion amongst sales advisors with GT customers to shape their minds.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,933
Likes: 10,783
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 16,023
Likes: 7,767
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
I think that only economic factors will cause prices to 'crash'. Thanks to the conflict in the Middle East, we may get those economic factors ...
Racer
Joined: Mar 2023
Posts: 259
Likes: 389
As with any commodity trading, it works on the greater fool theory - the item is only worth what the next "fool" (sorry. Unkind, pejorative term) is willing to pay. To keep this facade going, the collective market must continue to believe that its worth $X (including all the ADMs), otherwise who would pay it?
@chicagomarketing's excellent expose unveiled that BaT is used as a medium for making folks believe these cars were actually selling to individual buyers at those elevated prices (just check how many ppl were cross referencing BaT auctions as their evidence for why ADMs were justified.) With the truth revealed, we at least know that these values are likely artificial and the actual market's not paying these prices. Armed with this knowledge, it will make people less willing to pay large ADMs (if any) in the future as the facade has been lifted. Will that lead to a "crash" or not is to be determined - but I think it'll definitely decrease tolerance for ever-increasing ADMs.
Another point to consider is - if these cars are so desirable by themselves that they command such high premiums. Then why would dealers pay $7500 to BaT, not to mention use middlemen, to create this elaborate scheme? Wouldn't it just be easier to call up a client and sell them the car at a high ADM? (Which btw the dealers can absolutely choose to charge ADM on new cars - this is not dictated by PCNA because if it was, then they wouldn't be charging them.) Doesn't this look like a failing company cooking its books to make it look like they are still doing well?
Overall, kudos to the OP, he gave us a more detailed insight that wasn't just conjecture. This deserves its own thread.
@chicagomarketing's excellent expose unveiled that BaT is used as a medium for making folks believe these cars were actually selling to individual buyers at those elevated prices (just check how many ppl were cross referencing BaT auctions as their evidence for why ADMs were justified.) With the truth revealed, we at least know that these values are likely artificial and the actual market's not paying these prices. Armed with this knowledge, it will make people less willing to pay large ADMs (if any) in the future as the facade has been lifted. Will that lead to a "crash" or not is to be determined - but I think it'll definitely decrease tolerance for ever-increasing ADMs.
Another point to consider is - if these cars are so desirable by themselves that they command such high premiums. Then why would dealers pay $7500 to BaT, not to mention use middlemen, to create this elaborate scheme? Wouldn't it just be easier to call up a client and sell them the car at a high ADM? (Which btw the dealers can absolutely choose to charge ADM on new cars - this is not dictated by PCNA because if it was, then they wouldn't be charging them.) Doesn't this look like a failing company cooking its books to make it look like they are still doing well?
Overall, kudos to the OP, he gave us a more detailed insight that wasn't just conjecture. This deserves its own thread.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,309
Likes: 703
From: SLC, UT
i told myself i would stay off this thread … so much for my nyr.
anyway, for those of you that think pricing is going “crash” … have you looked at the pricing of previous GT cars? are any of them even close to original msrp?
if im wrong ill be the first to attempt. but you guys have to understand … what is a GT car? from the onset AP wanted a proper N.A. high revving car that makes you want to drive. these cars engage with you and you want to become a better driver.
all things considered the GT division is huge success. yes, there are issues but nothing is perfect and those of you that equate price to perfection have the wrong mindset imo.
AP is getting older … who knows how long he will be head of the division … these .2s will be last of the last. yes, new GT cars will be faster but will use hybrid technology and will have so much “driver aid” assistance technology it will take the fun out of the entire experience.
yes, the adm thing will likely go away at some point but the value of these cars will stay high and will not likely ever go below their original msrp. those of you paying overs on these cars did so because that is the current situation and know this is it. those of us lucky enough to have any GT car understand once you get in and start the car the last thing on your mind is the price of admission. it’s an experience and for many who have these cars understand this. life is short and if your a driver, there is nothing like it.
have fun worrying about the GT car price crash.
anyway, for those of you that think pricing is going “crash” … have you looked at the pricing of previous GT cars? are any of them even close to original msrp?
if im wrong ill be the first to attempt. but you guys have to understand … what is a GT car? from the onset AP wanted a proper N.A. high revving car that makes you want to drive. these cars engage with you and you want to become a better driver.
all things considered the GT division is huge success. yes, there are issues but nothing is perfect and those of you that equate price to perfection have the wrong mindset imo.
AP is getting older … who knows how long he will be head of the division … these .2s will be last of the last. yes, new GT cars will be faster but will use hybrid technology and will have so much “driver aid” assistance technology it will take the fun out of the entire experience.
yes, the adm thing will likely go away at some point but the value of these cars will stay high and will not likely ever go below their original msrp. those of you paying overs on these cars did so because that is the current situation and know this is it. those of us lucky enough to have any GT car understand once you get in and start the car the last thing on your mind is the price of admission. it’s an experience and for many who have these cars understand this. life is short and if your a driver, there is nothing like it.
have fun worrying about the GT car price crash.
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 5,884
Likes: 7,715
From: Ohio
How so? With all of the billionaires on this forum, and how we are constantly lectured about how intelligent they are, surely they made the correct trade to profit handsomely from the conflict.