A place to discuss all things ADM
12-16-2022, 12:13 AM
#3601
I think lots of people lost interest somewhere around the 20th hoop.
12-16-2022, 12:19 AM
#3602
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Good analysis of the auto industry by an expert. He predicts that used prices will gradually decline somewhat next year, but no big crash. He predicts that new prices will stay pretty strong, though ADMs may decrease somewhat. The driving factor is that supply is still a little too low, and demand hasn't dropped that much and isn't expected to drop a lot even if there's a recession.
12-16-2022, 12:56 AM
#3603
Race Car
To whom it may concern,
Your company manufacturers some amazing sports cars. I’ve been fortunate to own a few pre-owned models and currently own a 991 GT3. I had hopes of success that would put me in a position to buy new someday. Financially this became feasible and I placed a deposit at the local dealer who serviced the cars. I was told of course that there is a list but that my opportunity would come if I formed a good relationship and was patient. This was 2017……my local dealer did not get enough 991.2 allocations so my deposit stayed on the books and I was told that I was #3 on the list. At the advice of a fellow Porsche owner and track day friend I reached out to some of the larger dealers in my state. Most either laughed at or ignored my calls, however one of the larger dealers took my deposit and placed me #5 on their list. I was very transparent that I didn’t need multiple cars but simply wanted an opportunity to buy a manual transmission NA 911. Fast forward through all the emails about supply chains, lack of allocations, production problems, etc. Earlier this year my small local dealer emailed to say that after 5 years they are returning my deposit because they only got 1 992 GT3 allocation. I was disappointed but understood. I was grateful to have placed the other deposit at the larger dealer who was still hoping to get me a copy. They had received 2, and they needed 2 more to get to my position. Today I was informed that they won’t be getting any more allocations. I understand and am not upset with the dealer for taking the deposit.
This brings me to my question for Porsche corporate. Do you have a desire to expand your customer base? Do you have so many customers that I should perhaps try and find a home with another brand? Could I have done something different to try and purchase one of your sports cars? I live in Wisconsin which appears to suffer in comparison to the larger cities. With that said Chicago dealers said they couldn’t sell outside of their market. I’ve invested time and money over the past 5 years, I’ve offered to by a SUV or othe Porsche product that I don’t need to gain favor in the eyes of the dealer……is it time to give up?
Happy Holidays!
Your company manufacturers some amazing sports cars. I’ve been fortunate to own a few pre-owned models and currently own a 991 GT3. I had hopes of success that would put me in a position to buy new someday. Financially this became feasible and I placed a deposit at the local dealer who serviced the cars. I was told of course that there is a list but that my opportunity would come if I formed a good relationship and was patient. This was 2017……my local dealer did not get enough 991.2 allocations so my deposit stayed on the books and I was told that I was #3 on the list. At the advice of a fellow Porsche owner and track day friend I reached out to some of the larger dealers in my state. Most either laughed at or ignored my calls, however one of the larger dealers took my deposit and placed me #5 on their list. I was very transparent that I didn’t need multiple cars but simply wanted an opportunity to buy a manual transmission NA 911. Fast forward through all the emails about supply chains, lack of allocations, production problems, etc. Earlier this year my small local dealer emailed to say that after 5 years they are returning my deposit because they only got 1 992 GT3 allocation. I was disappointed but understood. I was grateful to have placed the other deposit at the larger dealer who was still hoping to get me a copy. They had received 2, and they needed 2 more to get to my position. Today I was informed that they won’t be getting any more allocations. I understand and am not upset with the dealer for taking the deposit.
This brings me to my question for Porsche corporate. Do you have a desire to expand your customer base? Do you have so many customers that I should perhaps try and find a home with another brand? Could I have done something different to try and purchase one of your sports cars? I live in Wisconsin which appears to suffer in comparison to the larger cities. With that said Chicago dealers said they couldn’t sell outside of their market. I’ve invested time and money over the past 5 years, I’ve offered to by a SUV or othe Porsche product that I don’t need to gain favor in the eyes of the dealer……is it time to give up?
Happy Holidays!
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12-16-2022, 01:08 AM
#3604
Burning Brakes
Dear cirrusdriver,
Just buy a lightly used 991.2 gt3 at msrp and call it a day. Or wait few months for prices on 992 gt3 to settle. And trust me, it will come close to msrp despite what adm crowds are claiming (the usual supply chain rhetoric and p car will stop producing gt3 rhetoric. Obviously it will stop once gt3rs gets pumped out). In the end, gt3 is a run of the mill car and its not a collector grade car by any means. Once the next greatest and latest comes out, it drops in price.
This whole allocation nonsense is an artificial scarcity. Porsche can pump out gt3 but they want it to be like an hermes birkin/kelly where you have to buy a bunch of crap bags (macan/cayenne/panamera) to buy a gt3.
Just buy a lightly used 991.2 gt3 at msrp and call it a day. Or wait few months for prices on 992 gt3 to settle. And trust me, it will come close to msrp despite what adm crowds are claiming (the usual supply chain rhetoric and p car will stop producing gt3 rhetoric. Obviously it will stop once gt3rs gets pumped out). In the end, gt3 is a run of the mill car and its not a collector grade car by any means. Once the next greatest and latest comes out, it drops in price.
This whole allocation nonsense is an artificial scarcity. Porsche can pump out gt3 but they want it to be like an hermes birkin/kelly where you have to buy a bunch of crap bags (macan/cayenne/panamera) to buy a gt3.
12-16-2022, 01:18 AM
#3605
Just make the offer. They will say no since they can get more via auction right now. That car would sell for $40-$45K over via auction today at a minimum. If you make the +$20K offer im sure they will keep you in mind for if and when they reach that range. Also sitting one month is nothing on the 992 GT3, there are dozens sitting for 60+ days, there is one that has sat for 350 days and still listed, they arent moving on it. Means nothing right now.
Last edited by WCGhost; 12-16-2022 at 01:21 AM.
12-16-2022, 09:51 AM
#3606
Rennlist Member
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The situation really sucks. It really shouldn’t be this hard. I do wonder if it’s truly supply constraint or is it more an artificial constraint to drive exclusivity like in the sneaker world. Hope it’s the former. And someone from corporate hangs out around here and reads your letter. Enthusiast like yourself are foundational to a strong lasting brand. Felt the passion. There has to be a better way. Good luck.
12-16-2022, 12:01 PM
#3607
I moved to buying cars from dealerships that sell multiple brands under one roof as their clients base is pretty big, and they support relationships better based on my experience. Funny story when I was picking up the G63, some dude just picked up a GT3 drove it from the dealer with 30 miles on the car, and put it on consignment with my guy. Porsche called the pissed off when they saw the car for sale, and yes they banned the guy he will never get another GT3. Case point sell to people that support you vs wanting to hit a home run. Anyway sorry long rant, but you get the just of it. Just sharing a point of view as I saw some value in it, snd it’s bigger than Porsche. It’s all a game, and learn where you fit ……dealer is not your friend once you walk in the door it’s business.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NcgQcYvAnJU
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rodsky (12-17-2022)
12-16-2022, 12:19 PM
#3608
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Im not pushing this guy, but he’s does have some factual points on dealers buying up the supply. Ignore the G Wagon and Uris proxy, but the messaging cross all brands my view on dealer behavior. What’s funny I picked up a G wagon at MSRP in October perfect spec, and I watched a few sales on BAT. Limited specs are still going 50k over used which is interesting, and non magno colors don’t do so well.
I moved to buying cars from dealerships that sell multiple brands under one roof as their clients base is pretty big, and they support relationships better based on my experience. Funny story when I was picking up the G63, some dude just picked up a GT3 drove it from the dealer with 30 miles on the car, and put it on consignment with my guy. Porsche called the pissed off when they saw the car for sale, and yes they banned the guy he will never get another GT3. Case point sell to people that support you vs wanting to hit a home run. Anyway sorry long rant, but you get the just of it. Just sharing a point of view as I saw some value in it, snd it’s bigger than Porsche. It’s all a game, and learn where you fit ……dealer is not your friend once you walk in the door it’s business.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NcgQcYvAnJU
I moved to buying cars from dealerships that sell multiple brands under one roof as their clients base is pretty big, and they support relationships better based on my experience. Funny story when I was picking up the G63, some dude just picked up a GT3 drove it from the dealer with 30 miles on the car, and put it on consignment with my guy. Porsche called the pissed off when they saw the car for sale, and yes they banned the guy he will never get another GT3. Case point sell to people that support you vs wanting to hit a home run. Anyway sorry long rant, but you get the just of it. Just sharing a point of view as I saw some value in it, snd it’s bigger than Porsche. It’s all a game, and learn where you fit ……dealer is not your friend once you walk in the door it’s business.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NcgQcYvAnJU
While we live in our little fishbowl called Rennlist, and it appears everyone and their jilted mistress wants a GT3, in the real world most people don't, so the actual demand for a GT car amongst enthusiasts (i.e., those that will own and drive the car long term) is a very very small subsection of a small subsection of potential buyers.
So if you don't expand the customer base to include (what we like to call here) "flippers" then there would be absolutely no incentive for PAG to produce a GT car of any sort, cuz it wouldn't satisfy the bean counters.
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12-16-2022, 02:09 PM
#3609
Not disagreeing with you, but if marques (any marques, not just Porsche) were to really limit their "in demand" cars to enthusiasts, they would not have enough customers to make it actually worthwhile to make such a car.
While we live in our little fishbowl called Rennlist, and it appears everyone and their jilted mistress wants a GT3, in the real world most people don't, so the actual demand for a GT car amongst enthusiasts (i.e., those that will own and drive the car long term) is a very very small subsection of a small subsection of potential buyers.
So if you don't expand the customer base to include (what we like to call here) "flippers" then there would be absolutely no incentive for PAG to produce a GT car of any sort, cuz it wouldn't satisfy the bean counters.
While we live in our little fishbowl called Rennlist, and it appears everyone and their jilted mistress wants a GT3, in the real world most people don't, so the actual demand for a GT car amongst enthusiasts (i.e., those that will own and drive the car long term) is a very very small subsection of a small subsection of potential buyers.
So if you don't expand the customer base to include (what we like to call here) "flippers" then there would be absolutely no incentive for PAG to produce a GT car of any sort, cuz it wouldn't satisfy the bean counters.
For sure, not all the points I agree with in the vid but many are relevant. I think manufacturers and dealers are playing with fire ……….hot demand “Covid” caused a lot of greed. Porsche has the benefit of stuffing down some enthusiasts throats those ugly SUV’s, and once you eat enough of them ummmm you get a GT car. Ferrari is just Ferrari different league and customer base they don’t care what anyone thinks, but they can sell out product because of the brand. I still call this buying season the Matrix it’s not sustainable, and lots of people are getting “butt” hurt because they don’t feel special. It’s capitalism at it’s best either you play of you don’t ……..personally I think die hard Porsche owners think they’re owed something, and not poking it’s just what I see.
Will be interesting how it all sorts out …….plenty of cars on the resale market and it’s more than I’ve ever seen with GT cars the last 4 cycles, and that tells me Porsche choose cash over enthusiast wrong/right it could burn them on the back side. I’ve heard that from some at PCNA and they’re not happy with the dealer behavior and no legally they can’t stop it. Anyway agree with the fishbowl, and I like many of your comments you speak reality which some don’t like to hear. By the way it’s only a freaking car lots of good stuff out there, my Speedster has me spoiled it’s the best GT car experience I’ve had so for now I’m just watching this GT3 992 🍿 movie.
Last edited by Maverick787; 12-16-2022 at 06:01 PM.
12-16-2022, 02:19 PM
#3610
Not disagreeing with you, but if marques (any marques, not just Porsche) were to really limit their "in demand" cars to enthusiasts, they would not have enough customers to make it actually worthwhile to make such a car.
While we live in our little fishbowl called Rennlist, and it appears everyone and their jilted mistress wants a GT3, in the real world most people don't, so the actual demand for a GT car amongst enthusiasts (i.e., those that will own and drive the car long term) is a very very small subsection of a small subsection of potential buyers.
So if you don't expand the customer base to include (what we like to call here) "flippers" then there would be absolutely no incentive for PAG to produce a GT car of any sort, cuz it wouldn't satisfy the bean counters.
While we live in our little fishbowl called Rennlist, and it appears everyone and their jilted mistress wants a GT3, in the real world most people don't, so the actual demand for a GT car amongst enthusiasts (i.e., those that will own and drive the car long term) is a very very small subsection of a small subsection of potential buyers.
So if you don't expand the customer base to include (what we like to call here) "flippers" then there would be absolutely no incentive for PAG to produce a GT car of any sort, cuz it wouldn't satisfy the bean counters.
Sorry, I think “enthusiasts” is a dying term …..I’m 53 and kids are 21, 26, and 27 they’re loyal to nothing but what’s the new trend or thing. I think my view only, lot of the new luxury car buyers got word the GT product is a thing, and now they want it and will get bored with it and will sell it. The “enthusiasts” is left holding the loyalty bag what happen to me. Porsche has to evolve to the new buyer and cash rules, and Covid made it worse so here we are dealer hates customer and customer hates dealer. Dealers are telling PCNA we sell MSRP, and our cars are getting flipped so we joined in and that’s a true debate within Porsche now. Look what MB did with the G63 2021 MSRP was 156k and 2022 181k or so no reason but because we can and still sold out.
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RealityGT (12-16-2022)
12-16-2022, 02:28 PM
#3611
Rennlist Member
I've been wanting to get a GT3, but I don't need one enough to pay a 75K ADM to spec one. Ideal situation would be spec and order one on the configurator and have it delivered to PECLA, but I don't see dealers allowing that to happen in the near future. As much as it sucks to have to beg dealers to take my money on a 200K car, as long as people are paying ADM's on regular 30-40k cars I don't see GT3s being available at MSRP.
12-16-2022, 07:37 PM
#3612
$225K and Reserve not met on the latest auction on BAT. This is a solid price for the seller, getting $43K over MSRP for a low option car. If you think of ADM as a flat dollar amount it is within range, but if you think of ADM as a % of MSRP then this person actually got a decent premium.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...he-911-gt3-14/
I can't forecast prices, but based on what I have seen the past few weeks this is in line with PDK wing cars. The issue is that many cars listed on autotrader and elsewhere they are trying to sell the car for a minimum of $250K, even if it is a very low MSRP build. Personally if paying a $40K ADM I would prefer it be a higher MSRP build.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...he-911-gt3-14/
I can't forecast prices, but based on what I have seen the past few weeks this is in line with PDK wing cars. The issue is that many cars listed on autotrader and elsewhere they are trying to sell the car for a minimum of $250K, even if it is a very low MSRP build. Personally if paying a $40K ADM I would prefer it be a higher MSRP build.
Last edited by WCGhost; 12-16-2022 at 07:38 PM.
12-16-2022, 07:56 PM
#3613
$225K and Reserve not met on the latest auction on BAT. This is a solid price for the seller, getting $43K over MSRP for a low option car. If you think of ADM as a flat dollar amount it is within range, but if you think of ADM as a % of MSRP then this person actually got a decent premium.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...he-911-gt3-14/
I can't forecast prices, but based on what I have seen the past few weeks this is in line with PDK wing cars. The issue is that many cars listed on autotrader and elsewhere they are trying to sell the car for a minimum of $250K, even if it is a very low MSRP build. Personally if paying a $40K ADM I would prefer it be a higher MSRP build.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...he-911-gt3-14/
I can't forecast prices, but based on what I have seen the past few weeks this is in line with PDK wing cars. The issue is that many cars listed on autotrader and elsewhere they are trying to sell the car for a minimum of $250K, even if it is a very low MSRP build. Personally if paying a $40K ADM I would prefer it be a higher MSRP build.
Last edited by Maverick787; 12-16-2022 at 07:59 PM.
12-16-2022, 08:10 PM
#3614
The market is when a seller and buyer agree on a price. In this BAT auction, that didn’t happen even at $48k over MSRP (including $5k BAT fee)
