fxz

There s a more logical consequence to non sold Taycans and hybrids emissions debits

jump sooner the whole 992 models to 992.2 hybridazion
the car chassis, engine and pdk is already made for that jump
so its not a drama

usctrojanGT3

When are they releasing the 992 GT3?

Porschian

whenever the factory workers get out of quarantine?

usctrojanGT3

Maybe Geneva 2021?

Porschian

Basically

Norcalgt3

Does anyone think the rear unibar and straight front hood line design language will be gone by the second gen 992?

C.J. Ichiban

guys- very plainly they are testing all kinds of future products, and have a specific brand related cadence to releases.

there is a GT3 coming- but until we all get to drive it...what difference does knowing the horsepower do for you? if you want to wait with baited breath, go buy a christmas tree and wait for santa to drop off presents.

we still do not even have 992 turbo S coupes on ground yet. we are months away. each model needs an exclusive honeymoon phase for marketing, advertisement, developing supply chains (bucket seats, etc)

we know they will do a GT3, it's been six different ones in the last ~20 years. we know they will do an RS.

but things like a sport classic, an R, a speedster, etc...those are 'bonus cars' and not really core product the way turbo/ Gt3 / GTS / targa is core.

Waxer

Plus I don't think, and maybe its just me, that its going to be business as usual for any manufacturer as far as what models they release for production, when they are released, how many made or on what basis.

It would be great if we all wake up from this one morning and the world is right side up again. I don't know when that is going to happen.

groundhog

I think we live in very interesting times and not solely because of Corona virus but because of the geopolitical ramifications associated with it (a pandemic was inevitable and is planned for in all major businesses and contracts, as is war) There will be impacts on many corporations going forward, will Americans and others really want to buy an Apple computer or Tesla motorcar built under the auspices of the PRC (human rights abuse, forced labor camps, re-eduction camps, Corona Virus, the worlds most significant polluter). Will VW still consider this area a growth market.....all of this will have impacts that will play out over the next year or so. What does this mean for Porsche, who in my view were already at a crossroads prior to this outbreak.

First off, we have a whole world out there developing EVs (based around specious arguments - no need to worry about AGW when you have a major conflict brewing, a virus based pandemic and antibiotic resistant bactaeria brewing away in the background), they will progressively get better, cheaper and more interesting from a true performance POV. Secondly, we have have a plethora of extremely powerful and torque rich turbocharged cars - consider this, a simple tune on the 991.2 GTS will get you a mountain of torque and 550HP, keep in mind it was already nearly as quick as the 991.2 GT3 in stock form and incredibly versatile. Add to this efforts from AMG, Mclaren etc. The 720S is fantastic, what about the LT variants ....... also fantastic.

The reality is the GT cars will have to both deliver real track performance and have personality in spades - Porsche needs to succeed in both aspects of this statement. At this point in time I see the GT3 as somewhat confused, very underdone as a track capable road car and its trying too hard to be too many things to too many people and as such it has become a NA GTS or the GTS is very near a turbocharged GT3. The GT3 needs to rediscover its raison d'etre or it will become progressively watered down by filling too many niche expectations. There is an element of confused planning from Porsche and messaging from owners - look at what happened to the Cayman line up - one minute its turbocharged the next Porsche release a 4L GTS and yet the GT4 is only very marginally improved/quicker than the previous version - why? no significant changes to the rear suspension, limitations of the gearbox and gearing and no lift in torque from the motor making the HP increase a pure headline number. To some degree this is mutton dressed as lamb and yet the points of improvement were obvious..........

This brings me on to the GT3 RS - I currently campaign a 991.2 GT3 RS - as a road car its brilliant and as a track capable road car its also excellent. However, having run through 5 targa rounds before going into the multiday format events (season ended due to corona virus) - I would say the following -
(a) The car is far too heavy - with full cage and extinguisher system
(b) The engine lacks torque and as a consequence it gets monstered by open class vehicles (although generally top 10/100 and P1 or P2 in class).
(c) Lack of wheel/tire choice and inability to get tires - specifically Cup2 R, MPSC2 are simply uncompetitive (very much a Porsche Michellin problem)
(d) worlds dumbest centre lock design
(e) lack of modularity and price of parts - e.g. aluminium glued and riveted side panels/rear, checkout the price of a hood etc
(f) Brakes - move over to lighter/compact more dynamic units from performance friction
(g) seats - offer small, medium, large - fixed back CF
(h) more dynamic range/adjustability -springs/shocks (MR/KW)

So the next GT3 RS needs to gain torque, and lose a truck load of weight, improved springs and shock absorbers, become more stripped down and yet more practical from a motorsport perspective. I would like it to become far more hardcore and further differentiate itself from the GT3. All of this is very doable with current technology.

Jrtaylor9

^^^cup car? Clubsport?

C.J. Ichiban

exactly- seems hard to complain about a road car not being motorsports-y enough when they have REAL race cars for sale that in most cases are cheaper than doing anything to a GT3RS...

1) GT4 Clubsport
2) Standard GT3 Cup
3) Cup MR
4) GT3R
5) GT2RS
6) 935

Guest89

I am going to disagree with you - respectfully - on a number of points.

I believe that the coronavirus fallout - dovetailed with the current oil glut (notwithstanding the recent OPEC production cut) - will have a major impact on the electric car industry. I foresee the major German OEMs pressuring Merkel to roll back or relax CO2 restrictions; not doing so could lead to massive layoffs and a protracted economic crisis in one of the strongest Eurozone economies, and potentially lead to a rise of AfD sentiment. Merkel won’t let that happen. VW is Germany’s largest company by revenue, and Saxony owns ~12% and has 20% voting rights. VW has already bet the farm on EVs as a long term development, so they won’t write off their sunk R&D costs, but they will need to sell conventional ICE vehicles when there is dampened demand for more expensive EVs in the home market - the German middle class will get to bail out Italy and Spain (again) post-crisis!

Now, on to the GT3:

The unique selling proposition of the GT3 - high-revving naturally aspirated engine, manual transmission availability, daily driver capable, track capable - has never been stronger; the proliferation of turbocharged performance cars enhances the GT3’s position, in my opinion. Where else can you buy a car with the GT3’s characteristics (other than the 718 GTS, GT4, Spyder)? MX-5/Miata, Mustang, Camaro are the only other vehicles on sale that offer NA power and manual availability, and none of them are positioned in the premium portion of the market. You can’t get a clutch pedal in an Audi R8, Lamborghini Huracan/Aventador, or Corvette. McLaren and Ferrari are turbo and paddles only, with the exception of the V12 Ferraris, which remain NA.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that Porsche is “confused” about their product offerings. They experimented with the 718 twins, which are low volume/low demand vs. the 911 (i.e., lower stakes), and found that customer demand for the NA power plant remained strong.

Even if Porsche stops developing the NA engines - which they have neither done nor telegraphed an intention to do - there will still be demand from customers to purchase new cars (opportunity to spec a car how you want, opportunity to have latest tech coupled with some “old school” characteristics, warranty) with unique allure of NA power and manual option. I don’t believe that the supply-demand imbalance that characterized the 991 generation (i.e., ADMs) will be as powerful in the next generation, as consumers know that Porsche will build lots of cars (for all but the numbered vehicles, of which there will probably 1, or perhaps 2, per facelift cycle). Porsche will obviously moderate output in response to economic uncertainty, but I don’t think the cars will be truly difficult to acquire.

groundhog

You know CJ, its probably not a bad idea to listen to a customer when he or she "complains" - particularly if they are making suggestions that might, in their eyes, make for a better product Particularly if the market price in their jurisdiction is twice that of the US.

Anyhow, in response to your comment - other than the GT2RS none of the above can be road registered and are therefore ineligible for entry into Targa type events.

This is actually the case for a lot of amateur Motorsport (by this I do not mean "track days" - I mean sanctioned events run under FIA/CAMS/MA - where I live, obviously different bodies for the US/UK etc). In fact most amateur Motorsport is based around base vehicles that have had to be road registered at some point in their history - usually at first point of sale.

Like most amateurs - I have businesses to run and have to plan my events a year in advance - most are state based some are national level and range from one competitive day to six days in full competition.

I cannot realistically compete in something as rigid as Carrera Cup (and it and the terms are pretty rigid - also I prefer to operate in a broader more diverse and perhaps more challenging "gene" pool) therefore a Cup car isn’t of interest (and I reckon the clubsport GT4 would be a great deal of fun - but a whole lot less fun if the only option to entry is in an "invitational" class).

The bottom line is the GT3 RS, as sublime a road car as it is, there is a reality, at its price its performance is subpar (for some very simple reasons) relative to some 600HP+, 1200Kg, turbocharged AWD open class cars - in essence purpose built road rally cars (but originally road registered - my own example has a Cosworth long block).

The point I was making in my original post is that the fixes to the RS are neither outlandish or revolutionary in fact they are available right now and they would result in a much better base car.

The reality is Porsche doesn’t really listen to their customers, they listen to the bottom line - the new GT4 is a great case in point - it’s actually slow, a very marginal improvement over the last car that was released five years ago...............The fixes, once again, aren’t revolutionary, they are well understood and they are available now. None of this is news.....even to Porsche - e.g. why does the clubsport have "PDK" and the so called trackable road car ship only as a manual.

In the case of the GT3 - it just didn’t crank my handle, my old (991.2) GTS was more explosive, realistically it’s nowhere near my 720S and can’t compete with my RS. That’s why I was saying (at least for me) it’s neither here or there and feels like it’s lost direction. The other reality is it’s off the pace on track........................ In essence it’s become a “GT” car in the modern context.

And CJ - there is no such thing as a REAL race car , there are purpose built class based race cars (that are unable to be road registered and as a consequence may not be entered in a broad range of competition) and there are modified cars which can be used for all sorts of different motorsports (so long as they are compliant with the supp.regs/regs). I know you understand this, however the fact that you used the term REAL in capitals tells me you have a relatively narrow view.

The bottom line is there are some simple pragmatic changes that could be made to the GT3 RS which would make it a much better base car - for very little cost e.g. MR/KW suspension (springs and adjustable dampers) and Performance friction brakes to name two simple things that would have significant impact.

I'll leave you with another thought..............the pick of the current Porsche range is the 718 Spyder (as a "drivers" car, for pure twisties fun).........it is not pretending to be anything other than it is, right down to the exposed metal bars in the cloth cover.

The GT division needs a more coherent strategy
(1) make so called drivers cars - GT3T, Spyder, GT4T
(2) make niche collectables - speedster, 911R
(3) make genuine hard core cross over cars - GT4RS, GT3RS <-----make some effort here
(4) make gentleman racer cars GT2RS clubsport, 935 lookalike, Carrera Cup cars and GT4 cup (stop calling it a clubsport....it isn't)

The point being, have 4 clearly defined streams that meet 4 clearly defined levels of customer expectation.

Rxpert

The above is precisely why I wanted the 991.2 GT3 so bad (couldn’t get an allocation) and am near the top of the list, supposedly, for the 992 GT.

I want all the above that I can DD to the office, and drive right to the track for a HPDE half a dozen times a year. GT3 is situated perfected for me. The only thing that would make it better would be if the touring option had back seats so I could take my little 2 year old guy for a drive from time to time.

The Porsche 911 lineup is perfect if you ask me and I wouldn’t change a thing. Except more allocations haha

Drifting

I am also going to respectively disagree with you on several points. The first is the GT3. I know that many RS owners don't understand the point of the GT3, because they look at it solely as a slightly watered down RS, however you're missing the point that Porsche sells twice as many GT3s as RSs, and the reasons for that go way beyond price. Myself and many other GT3 owners have absolutely zero interest in an RS. Kudos to my friends that own an RS, but if they cost the same price, I'd still pick a GT3 over the RS.

I don't want a car with an enormous wing that looked tacked on, and extreme styling. If I wanted extreme look and extreme attention, I'd get a ferrari or a lambo. RS is noticeably larger than GT3, and GT3 is already too big, IMHO. The GT3 represents to me what the 911 used to be, which is a car that you can truly drive to work a few days a week, canyon carve on the weekend, and take to the track once a month. It's perfect in that role. And the GT3 manual and Touring options are also key. There is no other car manufacturer in the world, particularly of luxury/exotic cars that offers a high revving, NA engine, with a manual option. Porsche is filling a niche ignored by the rest of the word, which is why the Touring values are holding so well and the 992 Tourings will sell well.

you also really focus on the power of the various cars out there. Porsche is about the driving experience first and foremost. You focused a great deal on absolute power, which suggest you're driving the wrong brand. If you want absolute power, go buy another mclaren, or turbo ferrari. An NA car will never come close to the torque of a turbo, particularly an NA engine that will be rear mounted. Of course a GT3RS will get clobbered in an open class if it's competing with cars that have twice the torque from turbo engines, but it still punches well above its weight.

I do agree with some of your other points in that they should offer at least two sizes of LWB, improve the centerlock design (or make it optional on GT cars like the GTS), more shock adjustability like mclaren/ferrari.
I also agree the Porsche GT cars really need to lose some weight, but this all comes back to the GT3 and RS being a 911 derivative instead of their own model line. Porsche wants to keep their huge profit margins, so they are unlikely to do what many of us want...........make the GT cars with a CF monocell like Mclaren which would cut 300lbs of weight from the car. I'd be happy to pay an extra 20-30K for that, but Porsche apparently isn't ready to spend the money to make that a reality. Or they know they can just do BS weight loss like the 991.2 RS with WP, and get people to pay 25K just to save 20 lbs, instead of real substantial weight loss, which would only come from a CF monocell in the GT cars.