991 pricing is out of control right now
08-24-2021, 11:06 AM
#1441
Drifting
^ This is it, in a nutshell.
As soon as the paint gun comes out, there's a hit to the car's value—fair or not. Top dollar buyers want 100% factory paint, and the more of it, the better—with bumpers only getting a mild pass but still raising questions. Those buyers miss a lot of good cars, as one can make the argument that a well repaired car that hasn't been abused mechanically is better than one with all factory paint that's been abused or neglected. Then again, they're willing to pay for what they value. This "rule" does seem to apply more to recent Porsches than older ones. At some point, a complete repaint (or repaints) no longer count against a car—the only question is condition—while the few survivors with 100% factory paint go for multiples or at least significant premiums. Not sure what that crossover point is, in terms of model year/era.
My take? This appears to be a fantastic 911. The 991.2 Carrera 7MT was the first 911 to get me off the fence to order a new 911. Carrera 7MT + PCCB is that much more appealing, and this is a gorgeous color combo. Someone who doesn't mind a little paintwork, and even sees it as a permission slip to enjoy the car without worrying about keeping it 100% factory paint, is going to get a great car.
As soon as the paint gun comes out, there's a hit to the car's value—fair or not. Top dollar buyers want 100% factory paint, and the more of it, the better—with bumpers only getting a mild pass but still raising questions. Those buyers miss a lot of good cars, as one can make the argument that a well repaired car that hasn't been abused mechanically is better than one with all factory paint that's been abused or neglected. Then again, they're willing to pay for what they value. This "rule" does seem to apply more to recent Porsches than older ones. At some point, a complete repaint (or repaints) no longer count against a car—the only question is condition—while the few survivors with 100% factory paint go for multiples or at least significant premiums. Not sure what that crossover point is, in terms of model year/era.
My take? This appears to be a fantastic 911. The 991.2 Carrera 7MT was the first 911 to get me off the fence to order a new 911. Carrera 7MT + PCCB is that much more appealing, and this is a gorgeous color combo. Someone who doesn't mind a little paintwork, and even sees it as a permission slip to enjoy the car without worrying about keeping it 100% factory paint, is going to get a great car.
God bless,
TT
08-24-2021, 11:15 AM
#1442
Drifting
God bless,
TT
Last edited by TomTarzian; 08-24-2021 at 11:17 AM.
08-27-2021, 04:15 AM
#1446
Originally Posted by mrneef
I just paid $130k for a 991.2 gts pdk and 26k miles.
08-27-2021, 10:54 AM
#1448
I was amazed to see the 2014 C4S pdk with 23k miles, two accidents and no Sport Chrono go for $82k on BAT yesterday, or $86k when you factor in buyer's fees.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2014-porsche-911-75/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2014-porsche-911-75/
08-27-2021, 12:27 PM
#1449
Three Wheelin'
I was amazed to see the 2014 C4S pdk with 23k miles, two accidents and no Sport Chrono go for $82k on BAT yesterday, or $86k when you factor in buyer's fees.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2014-porsche-911-75/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2014-porsche-911-75/
08-28-2021, 03:36 AM
#1450
Instructor
I wonder how much my mint 991.1 GTS w/ PDK, white w/ black center locks, would fetch? I have ~2400 miles (yes, not a typo...I just don't drive it). Non-smoker, original owner...
08-28-2021, 03:47 AM
#1451
I think it's only manuals which are at the top of the market. I know, PDK costs more, but all the "wow" prices I've seen have been for manuals. I mean if you don't use it, sell it! No way I'm selling mine, nothing to replace it with.
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08-28-2021, 10:30 AM
#1452
Rennlist Member
Read this entire thread to get a basic understanding of the current market. Looking to get into a late 997 or early 991 once my Ferrari 360 sells(Hopefully Soon).
The water cooled 911s are new territory for me. Last Porsche owned was a 1985 930 S Flachbau! One of many cars I should have kept.
Thank you for all the information available from real world Porsche owners.
The water cooled 911s are new territory for me. Last Porsche owned was a 1985 930 S Flachbau! One of many cars I should have kept.
Thank you for all the information available from real world Porsche owners.
08-28-2021, 01:31 PM
#1453
Rennlist Member
Normally, price threads have me running for the hills. But I've found this one fascinating because—unlike most GT, early 911, etc etc price threads—it deals with something I never thought I'd see: a counterintuitive shift in the market for "normal" water-cooled 911s, and very recent ones. Which have always been big depreciators vs the GT variants.
Since the start of this thread, I've thought 991 pricing will come back down to earth on a mix of supply loosening up, the 992 price jump/sticker shock becoming normalized, the 992 "growing on people" much as the 964, 996, and 991 did (993 and 997 were hits from the start, even if one letter to the editor suggested the 997 should've been called the 995), market conditions, macroeconomics, etc. I think I still do, but I'm beginning to wonder if this shift might end up resembling another market that felt to me like a bubble: the early 911 market in the late 2000s. Thing is, it never popped. While that market has sorted itself out, with lesser examples softening up, demand for long-hood 911s has only gone one way against finite supply set back in the 1960s and early 1970s. The $10,000 or $20,000 drivers and $30,000-$50,000 original survivors are long gone. Regular early 911s aren't rare cars, particularly by the standard of their time, but what had mass appeal then has mass appeal now. You see that effect with 356 Speedsters and even the 914-6, which are only rare by Porsche standards—they are not even remotely rare by collector car standards…so their prices are down to a lot of people wanting the cars still available.
When I signed the papers for my GT4, I figured I'd always have a way out if living with one wasn't for me—and I was right. Over two years and 14,000 miles, I didn't lose all that much and probably could have done better on the sale price. When I signed the lease for my Carrera, I figured the ugly residual was a lock. Three years later, I was glad that it was under these market conditions. Had four dealers reach out trying to get the car, but the thing is, the "equity gain" isn't something that excites me…partly for the reasons others have stated (I love the car, and don't see any obvious replacement) and partly because rising prices tend to lock enthusiasts out and discourage use of the cars as intended.
@360spider you are probably in a good spot to get a great 997.2 or 991.1 as you come out of your 360, but I'd definitely drive a Carrera T just to see what you think. Coming out of a Ferrari, a 997.2 GTS or 991.1 GTS would be high on my list, too, and I'd apply the same advice I've always applied when a market gets hot: Look for high-mile cars that have been driven well and cared for properly—with no or little paintwork and all documentation. A member here came by in a black 991.1 C4S Cabriolet to pick up a child seat I no longer needed. His 911 looked great. He asked me what I thought he paid for it, and I was way off. He paid $50k~, iirc, because the car had high miles. And while it wasn't his perfect spec, I got the sense he's having more fun in it than far too 991 owners. YMMV…
Since the start of this thread, I've thought 991 pricing will come back down to earth on a mix of supply loosening up, the 992 price jump/sticker shock becoming normalized, the 992 "growing on people" much as the 964, 996, and 991 did (993 and 997 were hits from the start, even if one letter to the editor suggested the 997 should've been called the 995), market conditions, macroeconomics, etc. I think I still do, but I'm beginning to wonder if this shift might end up resembling another market that felt to me like a bubble: the early 911 market in the late 2000s. Thing is, it never popped. While that market has sorted itself out, with lesser examples softening up, demand for long-hood 911s has only gone one way against finite supply set back in the 1960s and early 1970s. The $10,000 or $20,000 drivers and $30,000-$50,000 original survivors are long gone. Regular early 911s aren't rare cars, particularly by the standard of their time, but what had mass appeal then has mass appeal now. You see that effect with 356 Speedsters and even the 914-6, which are only rare by Porsche standards—they are not even remotely rare by collector car standards…so their prices are down to a lot of people wanting the cars still available.
When I signed the papers for my GT4, I figured I'd always have a way out if living with one wasn't for me—and I was right. Over two years and 14,000 miles, I didn't lose all that much and probably could have done better on the sale price. When I signed the lease for my Carrera, I figured the ugly residual was a lock. Three years later, I was glad that it was under these market conditions. Had four dealers reach out trying to get the car, but the thing is, the "equity gain" isn't something that excites me…partly for the reasons others have stated (I love the car, and don't see any obvious replacement) and partly because rising prices tend to lock enthusiasts out and discourage use of the cars as intended.
@360spider you are probably in a good spot to get a great 997.2 or 991.1 as you come out of your 360, but I'd definitely drive a Carrera T just to see what you think. Coming out of a Ferrari, a 997.2 GTS or 991.1 GTS would be high on my list, too, and I'd apply the same advice I've always applied when a market gets hot: Look for high-mile cars that have been driven well and cared for properly—with no or little paintwork and all documentation. A member here came by in a black 991.1 C4S Cabriolet to pick up a child seat I no longer needed. His 911 looked great. He asked me what I thought he paid for it, and I was way off. He paid $50k~, iirc, because the car had high miles. And while it wasn't his perfect spec, I got the sense he's having more fun in it than far too 991 owners. YMMV…
Last edited by stout; 08-28-2021 at 01:36 PM.
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08-28-2021, 03:57 PM
#1454
Rennlist Member
Thank you Stout. Funny, when I bought my 360 spider 5 years ago it had 24k miles. Considered high in the Ferrari world for a 15 year old car. Currently at 31k miles on a 20 year old Ferrari.
I look for nice "Drivers". Miles are not a major concern within reason. Well maintained and cared for.
The GTS appears to be in short supply from what I am seeing. Leaning toward a stick but my current Macan S dd has me appreciating the PDK more and more!
I look for nice "Drivers". Miles are not a major concern within reason. Well maintained and cared for.
The GTS appears to be in short supply from what I am seeing. Leaning toward a stick but my current Macan S dd has me appreciating the PDK more and more!
