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I'm definitely keeping my order. I still think it offers a lot more value over a C2. I will say though, I'm not convinced that the PCCBs are needed. It really depends on your use case. I think for 99% of people, 99% of the time, the standard brakes will be just fine. How often are you pushing it very hard through twisty roads for a hundred miles at a time?
I agree with @stout and others that the price can escalate very quickly. But I really think that the marketing spin is actually correct with the T ... less really is more. This model is not meant to be over optioned. I'm trying to focus on not exceeding $115k/max. Well see how that works out.
Same here. Main reason to get one over base is RAS, but then it sounds like it also needs PCCB. All of a sudden it's a 120k car.
If spec a fairly nice but basic GTS at 140, can get a discount most likely to within 10k of T, and have extra hp, more choices/options, and bigger brakes which alleviates need for PCCB. Struggling with decision
Yeah. But, this is where Porsche Marketing has distilled their art into the near-science of separating us from our money. You can ALWAYS pay slightly more to get slightly more. My “perfect” 911T is $129k. A similarly-spec’d GTS2 is $146k. (Both w/PCCB.) Except that I’d have to add PDCC so that’s $149k. Now that’s only $13k from Turbo base. So why not step-up to the Capital T Turbo and get 80 more bhp and AWD traction?
This easily-slid-down slope is how I - in 2014 - went from a lightly-optioned C4S to a heavily-spec’d 991 Turbo. It was just too easy to look at the “value” I’d get for a few more K here-and-there and since I was already spending $1xxK why compromise and quibble about another $1xK?
Back to the T: In a GTS, for $20k over the T I’d get 70 bhp, PDCC, along with a less interesting interior and a front fascia and wheels I don’t really like. What I like better would be a C2S at $145k, but I get only 50 bhp and lose the ‘more noise’ properties of the T and GTS.
The 911T is another example of Porsche Marketing carefully parsing-out its market space to grease-up that slope to capture more profit. Love it or hate it, but you gotta respect their business acumen.
Yeah. But, this is where Porsche Marketing has distilled their art into the near-science of separating us from our money. You can ALWAYS pay slightly more to get slightly more. My “perfect” 911T is $129k. A similarly-spec’d GTS2 is $146k. (Both w/PCCB.) Except that I’d have to add PDCC so that’s $149k. Now that’s only $13k from Turbo base. So why not step-up to the Capital T Turbo and get 80 more bhp and AWD traction?
This easily-slid-down slope is how I - in 2014 - went from a lightly-optioned C4S to a heavily-spec’d 991 Turbo. It was just too easy to look at the “value” I’d get for a few more K here-and-there and since I was already spending $1xxK why compromise and quibble about another $1xK?
Back to the T: In a GTS, for $20k over the T I’d get 70 bhp, PDCC, along with a less interesting interior and a front fascia and wheels I don’t really like. What I like better would be a C2S at $145k, but I get only 50 bhp and lose the ‘more noise’ properties of the T and GTS.
The 911T is another example of Porsche Marketing carefully parsing-out its market space to grease-up that slope to capture more profit. Love it or hate it, but you gotta respect their business acumen.
Spot on. Hence why the T is such good overall value (IMHO).
You can ALWAYS pay slightly more to get slightly more.
Bingo, if by "more" you mean more on paper performance. Porsche of course engineers it that way- we always pay what it's worth to us, not what it costs. If that's not abundantly clear consider Paint to Sample, which costs now costs $13k for a GT3 Touring because PTS cars were getting premiums. However it costs 6k less to get PTS on a regular Carrera?
Bottom line the more you want it, the more they will charge, so your best bet to get a deal is to want something everyone else doesn't (ie a base Carrera, which shares 95% of its bits with a Turbo S for half the price). And Porsche's best deals (IMHO) are cars with more extreme experiences relative to their performance (like the Boxster Spyder). I guess the question Pete's trying to answer is if the Carrera T is one of those cars...
Below is from a couple years ago, I need to revise it for the turbo cars, but it makes your point graphically.
And Porsche's best deals (IMHO) are cars with more extreme experiences relative to their performance (like the Boxster Spyder). I guess the question Pete's trying to answer is if the Carrera T is one of those cars...
And I'm highly interested in the answer. Because.... We're going to win the raffle!
And, because we want a modern experiential Porsche with a manual before they turn into electrified 100% nanny-infested IoT-hackable Dodos.
AND, because there's little chance at getting a slot (at a reasonable price) for a GT3-T which would be less useful on Yankee Land roads anyway.
Below is from a couple years ago, I need to revise it for the turbo cars, but it makes your point graphically.
Yup. That chart has been making the interweb rounds since then. Prior to me finding your chart on Planet-9, I'd already done some basic number-noodling and come to a personal conclusion that it was likely the case that these numbers, suitably normalized, would be a straight line in some $ vs. Perf-Number space.
Bingo, if by "more" you mean more on paper performance.
One more thing... in this case the "more" is not just paper performance. It's 'more' in terms of a more interesting interior. Less insulation. Half-chrono option without the dash wart. Etc.
The 'more' is often highly subjective.
Love or hate Porsche's smorgasbord of options and the prices that come with it.
I for one love (and hate it due to price) as it allows me to spec exactly what I want. None of the other 'volume' manufacturers give you this smorgasbord choice.
Last, IMO, this smorgasbord approach is one more lubricant on the Porsche triple-black-dollar slope. Once you've configurated-up your perfect Porsche there's no point in looking for used 'cause you won't find it. As one acquaintance told me a long time ago: "You can't pick and choose your options at the used car factory."
[QUOTE=Petevb;14671750]
And Porsche's best deals (IMHO) are cars with more extreme experiences relative to their performance (like the Boxster Spyder). I guess the question Pete's trying to answer is if the Carrera T is one of those cars... [QUOTE]
What a day. Nine hours of driving on great roads in desolate countryside and mountain roads, culminating in the original Monte route, in winter on winter tires in 3.5-6.5 degrees C with snow next to the road, in a GT3 Touring chasing a Carrera T. Fast...and I do mean fast. And a bit hairy. All the time. I've driven a lot of Porsches on a lot of roads over the last 20~ years, but this was one of the top 2-3 most exciting drives of my life. Glad to be sitting on a bed in an ancient hotel room with my laptop on my lap, as there is no desk.
Too much to think about from today, and yesterday, but re: the question above, the answer is no. The Carrera T is not like the 987.2 Boxster Spyder, with that experience that adds up to far more than the spec sheet suggests. Nor is it like the 981 Boxster Spyder, which does in fact differentiate itself from the 981 Boxster S/GTS on several levels. The T is a Carrera+ that drives VERY much like a base Carrera. Faced with the decision, I would order it over a base Carrera and like it better than the GTS for a few reasons (more on this later), but the differences are not as great as I hoped they might be. Not even with SPASM and PTV/LSD. Now, one big grain of salt: snow tires...but the way we drove the cars, I don't think this was a major changer in terms of vehicle dynamics. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll withhold a BIT of judgement until I drive a T stateside...but...I would not move out of a 991.2 Carrera/S to a T if it meant selling.
Now, about that GT3 Touring. Holy moly. I thought I had a good sense for the .2 GT3 MT from last summer's trip to the Eiffel. And I sort of did. Sort of. If the Carrera and Carrera T are all the 911 you need, the GT3/Touring are all the 911. What a car. The only heart-breaker, for me, is no rear seats. Otherwise, it is my perfect 911 full stop, and one I could drive for the next 20 years. Doesn't offer the incredible dual nature of the 991.2 Carrera, and it does tire you out on a long day because it's high strung and thus asks a lot of you, but it is one of the true automative masterpieces of the last decade, at any price. The only modern Porsches that approach or exceed it for total experience are the Carrera GT (V10) and 997 4.0. And that is saying a lot.
Need to think some more, but also need to be up in five hours to head for the airport in Nice. Will post back, and see about some video and/or photos when I have better wi-fi...
Thanks for the update Pete. Rest well, safe travels, and I'll look forward to reading more after you've had a chance to reflect (and had some sleep).
Would love to hear your take on the GT4 and GT3 Touring as stablemates. If one's intent is to drive and use both, it seems that they would be different, but maybe redundant. Or?
Oh, one more question. When you talk with the person at immigration at whatever country you entered, how do you answer the question about the purpose of your trip? Honestly, I might choke. Seems like it could honestly be answered either as business or pleasure.
Thank you for the update, Pete! I can't say I'm not a little disappointed to hear that the car doesn't provide much of a different experience over the the C2. I never wanted it to be faster ... just different. That said, it doesn't change my mind about it; The C2 is a fantastic car and I still feel the T will be loads of fun to own and will be keeping my order. Also, I can't help but feel that having you folks drive the T and the GT3T within the same day almost kills it - nothing can compare to the GT3, so it's kind of hard to fall in love with the T after experiencing that, no?
I'm really looking forward to hearing your final thoughts (and seeing pics/vids) around both models! Thank you again for your efforts!
It is worth mentioning that Pete is driving these cars for hundreds of miles on some of the most demanding and fun roads in the world.
Without access to roads like them, or a track, much of what has been written about brake inadequacy and performance in general seems to be a moot point.
His assessment of the GT3T: "...it does tire you out on a long day because it's high strung and thus asks a lot of you..." is my only beef with the GT cars. I enjoy driving very long distances (2-300 miles in a day) on demanding mountain/canyon roads, primarily to enjoy the journey, not to get to any destination.
The GTS (997 NA w/MT) is, for me, a sweet spot for Grand Touring (hence its moniker) and Sport (canyon carving)- a Swiss Army knife vehicle, with a Jekyll and Hyde personality. Pete is doing the epitome of GT driving, but both the T and GT3T are pretty narrowly focused models.
Great thread.
Last edited by Liste-Renn; 12-17-2017 at 06:52 AM.
Bingo, if by "more" you mean more on paper performance. Porsche of course engineers it that way- we always pay what it's worth to us, not what it costs. If that's not abundantly clear consider Paint to Sample, which costs now costs $13k for a GT3 Touring because PTS cars were getting premiums. However it costs 6k less to get PTS on a regular Carrera?
Bottom line the more you want it, the more they will charge, so your best bet to get a deal is to want something everyone else doesn't (ie a base Carrera, which shares 95% of its bits with a Turbo S for half the price). And Porsche's best deals (IMHO) are cars with more extreme experiences relative to their performance (like the Boxster Spyder). I guess the question Pete's trying to answer is if the Carrera T is one of those cars...
Below is from a couple years ago, I need to revise it for the turbo cars, but it makes your point graphically.
VB this graph would work much better if it showed power under the curve/weight versus price, particularly given most Porsche sports cars are turbocharged
Originally Posted by stout
Doesn't offer the incredible dual nature of the 991.2 Carrera, and it does tire you out on a long day because it's high strung and thus asks a lot of you, .
Unfortunately thats why the GT cars don't cut it for me as road cars other than for limited use - you are way better off with the GTS with the performance fruit - its as quick as the GT3 and much much better as a genuine GT car. If you want a dedicated track car get a Cup car. In my mind the real all rounder in the current 911 stable is the 991.2 GTS - it can do everything well - the only limitation is the driver. Also, something like the old 981 GTS is genuinely more fun than any GT car I have driven on public roads.
VB this graph would work much better if it showed power under the curve/weight versus price, particularly given most Porsche sports cars are turbocharged
Unfortunately thats why the GT cars don't cut it for me as road cars other than for limited use - you are way better off with the GTS with the performance fruit - its as quick as the GT3 and much much better as a genuine GT car. If you want a dedicated track car get a Cup car. In my mind the real all rounder in the current 911 stable is the 991.2 GTS - it can do everything well - the only limitation is the driver. Also, something like the old 981 GTS is genuinely more fun than any GT car I have driven on public roads.
EMOTION/SOUL. There's no .2 GTS chart line for that, and it's why GT3's are the sports car experience benchmarks that they are.
EDIT: Though, I definitely agree on the 981 GTS. Perhaps inherently funner than any 911, but that isn't a truly level comparison as Cayman's are like go-karts compared to the 991, and the 981 GTS is really the perfect tool for backroad pleasure runs imo.
EMOTION/SOUL. There's no .2 GTS chart line for that, .
These are marketing terms - the GT3 is a club level racer and thats it. In serious competition it gets pasted - check out the adac NBr24hr. The 991 GT3 is a gentlemens racer and thats about it.
The 991 GT3 is a facsimile for the PTS and deviated stitching crowd. Its so far behind the curve that its laughable.
These are marketing terms - the GT3 is a club level racer and thats it. In serious competition it gets pasted - check out the adac NBr24hr. The 991 GT3 is a gentlemens racer and thats about it.
Honestly, if someone can’t decipher soul and emotion out of a car, they’re either dead inside or not true car enthusiasts. The chief engineer of the Huracán Performante said it quite well during the Jay Leno drive review. While that car puts up mega numbers, he stresses it’s the emotion and soul above all that inspires people to buy it, and what the engineers strived to accomplish out of it above all.
I would guess most GT3 buyers won’t ever track their cars. Or at least a significant portion won’t. Those people are buying it for the EXACT reasons Stout is so head over heels over it. Or why members here claim how after they drive it, they want to marry it. It isn’t because they can feel its track times. Emotion is the most honest aspect within a car. In fact, it’s the only aspect that has nothing to do with marketing. Touting ring times on cars most people won’t ever time a lap anywhere on, is more so for marketing purposes if anything.
12-15-2017 | 01:59 PM
