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A drive in the Carrera T and GT3 Touring

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Old 12-18-2017, 03:03 PM
  #91  
Keadog
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Originally Posted by stout
Thanks, all, and hope to find a little time to answer more questions in a bit. A crosspost from the 991 Forum thread, but hopefully just as interesting here:

My big takeaways after three hours of sleep plus a record 5-6 more on the plane trip home was:

The Carrera T is a VERY cool package in need of nothing other than a brake upgrade (YMMV, but I have now had base 991.2 brakes either get smelly or come up with a pedal that left me lacking confidence when I needed it most). It was also the better car on the Monte Carlo route, and several attempts to trade the GT3 Touring for the T I was paired with for the day came to naught. Its (very good) driver knew that it was the better car on those narrow, rock-faced cliffy roads, being nearly 2 inches narrower and possessing low-end torque the GT3 Touring just doesn't. It was also wearing better snow tires when it came to braking, a key advantage. However, I would not jump from a 991.2 Carrera or S already in the garage to the T because the hardware that makes you think it will be a better drive is pretty subtle. Even the Sport PASM is tough to discern other than the lowered ride height; it rides just as nicely, and handles just as nicely as my standard Carrera. Maybe I need to get a T press car and really do a back to back to see if there is ANY discernible difference over the same roads on the same day, as that's the only way it gets better than doing a 1200-mile trip followed by 500 miles on twisty roads in a 991.2 Carrera 7MT and then flying to France to drive the T on the old Monte Carlo route and a bunch of other similarly amazing roads. This was, hands down, the best and most demanding set of roads I've driven on a European press trip. I could not have planned a better route myself. Okay, so what about the LSD/PTV+ and other bits? The LSD/PTV+ are a mixed bag to me. Yes, we're supposed to hand in our car enthusiast cards if we dare speak against having an LSD, but something Bernd Kahnau said last summer in an interview for 000 has stuck with me: He skipped the LSD in his "F22" pet project because he feels a 911 without an LSD is easier to drive (and seemed to be hinting at more agile). And the 911 hardly has a rear-end traction problem. What's more, while I am sold on PTV in heavier, more complex Porsches, I am not sure I like it in the lighter, simpler versions—such as basic 981 2.7s and the simplest 991.2. There are times where you almost catch of whiff of that "was that me, or a computer?" in the lighter cars. I can't discern the difference in the shorter final drive—I was hoping it would really liven things up, but it didn't. It's 3%~, I was told. Another one that may be more apparent on the same road on the same day...maybe I will try for that. The Sport-Tex is cool and fine by me, but less grippy than expected; I'd prefer the "corduroy" in the GT3 Touring or even the Alcantara in my GT4. The lightweight windows are cool but do come with a downside besides the minor issue of no rear wiper availability: no rear defrost. Which leads me to the one, biggest discernible difference when driving the T, and my co-driver—who also just took delivery of a 991.2 Carrera MT on PCCB—agreed it was just that: The short shift throws are immediately nicer, and nearly if not completely GT4 good, but that's an easy upgrade for any 991.2 MT. So, would I order a T? Depending on what options I want, probably. It has a cool factor a regular Carrera doesn't, being a special model (that's really just a trim package). On the other hand, if I want PCCB (and I would), I might just order a Carrera. The price delta will pay for a lot of cool options on a Carrera, and PCCB would be the first one I'd tick. Finally, every press trip has one color that kind of wins, if that makes sense? On this one, the one that won was the White T—it just looked better to these eyes than the Guards Red, Racing Yellow, and Miami Blue cars they had along for the ride. Too bad there was no GT Silver, or Black—but man did a plain White T look good. Really worked with the gray mirrors. I'd delete the stripes (they're even worse in person than on the configurator) and consider the five-spoke wheels, which own the gray better than the ten-spokers.

The GT3 Touring is an emotional experience with few if any parallels. It's the first 991 to cause me to question whether the 997 RS 4.0 still sits on top for me in terms of emotion and involvement. Its engine is at least as good and exciting as the last Mezger, just an absolute masterpiece. The noises...ugh, the noises. This is a flat six that has you questioning what a 250 GTO engine or the best sounding straight six of V8 really has to offer in terms of noises—and its precision and power all over the place are simply nutty. The shifter and clutch are better than those in any 997. The steering is finally there—trading a bit of feel for enough advantage in response and precision to make me jump camps. The car's size is a bit big, but it largely goes away with the .2 generation due to some advances in the suspension. The brakes are perfection to the point of never coming up for discussion no matter how hard they got pounded on the Monte route, which never lets the rotors get up to speed to cool down. And, while I wanted the size and torque advantages of the T on the Monte route, I am glad the other (probably better) driver wouldn't give the T up—because when I got to the bottom of the mountain I was thoroughly spent and sated. I don't smoke, but I felt like I needed a cigarette—and the buzz lasted all the way into the airport in Nice twelve hours later. A 500-hp, RWD 911 on snow tires, on the Monte route, with snow along the sides, driven full tilt is an experience I'll never forget, and maybe, just maybe a better drive than my previous best—a run through lonely redwoods to Leggett in a Carrera GT. The 991.2 GT3 is that good, and the Touring package added something I didn't expect from the photos—as I thought I preferred the winged car to the Touring. Not after seeing and spending time around a black GT3 Touring on satin aluminum wheels. It was subtle and sinister, dripping of that "only if you know" thing that the first 500E/E500 did so well. This car likes to be dark, so I'd have mine in Black, Deep Sea Blue (Meerblau), or Brewster Green with satin aluminum wheels and PCCB—and keep it dirty. It looks gooooooooood that way. YMMV...
Bravo. Great writing.
Thanks!
Old 12-18-2017, 03:25 PM
  #92  
Selo
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Thanks for the write ups.
What do you feel about RAS in the T? Would you still take a base Carrera vs a T with RAS, or only vs a comparable T without RAS?
Old 12-18-2017, 03:44 PM
  #93  
stout
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Originally Posted by Selo
Thanks for the write ups.
What do you feel about RAS in the T? Would you still take a base Carrera vs a T with RAS, or only vs a comparable T without RAS?
I like my simple Porsches simple, so no, I'd skip RAS in the T.

But I sure like RAS in the GT3, which is a bigger, more complicated car. The level of calibrations in this latest GT3 are simply amazing. Its "of a piece" in use is a new level of revelation—I thought I had the basic measure of it after two fast days last July. I was wrong. It's better than I thought.
Old 12-18-2017, 04:47 PM
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Did you drive any Ts with PDK?
Old 12-18-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rkwfxd
Did you drive any Ts with PDK?
Switched user settings while I figure some things out in the leap to Rennlist sponsor, but the quick answer to your question is no. Sorry!
Old 12-18-2017, 06:23 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by stout
I like my simple Porsches simple, so no, I'd skip RAS in the T.
I understand your point, but I'm guessing the T might have a pretty high take rate for RAS. Improved cornering and handling in a less costly package....and all the power lots of folks feel the need for.
Old 12-18-2017, 07:09 PM
  #97  
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the more i read about this the more tempted i am to go for a T instead of a GTS.

Have people tried both engines? I have only tried the S and GTS, and honestly don't remember them being that different at all...I could care less about the speed as any modern 911 would get you a speeding ticket pretty quickly. Is the base engine really "better" like people are saying?
Old 12-18-2017, 07:41 PM
  #98  
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Here is another take on the T and Touring models, with Walter Röhrl at the wheel(s).
(Looks like they did the same route as Pete.)
http://www.curves-magazin.com/en/blo...t-gt3-touring/

Best shot of the article:
Old 12-18-2017, 08:24 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Liste-Renn
Here is another take on the T and Touring models, with Walter Röhrl at the wheel(s).
(Looks like they did the same route as Pete.)
http://www.curves-magazin.com/en/blo...t-gt3-touring/

Best shot of the article:
Funny, pretty sure I am driving some of the cars in these pics. Stefan is one seriously cool dude, and his photos are legit.
Old 12-18-2017, 08:26 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by stout
Thanks, and hope it's helpful to have some boots on the ground. This freebie to Rennlist.com is a bit of an experiment as we move forward with 000, as the magazine really doesn't fit the usual press trip model—but I don't want to lose touch with new product and the engineers behind it entirely.

The GTS is seriously appealing if one needs rear seats (like I do) and can stay away from the options list (easier to do on the GTS than other 991.2s). The downsides for me are 1) I am not sure the 450-hp engine is as much of a gem, experientially, as the 370-hp version (which I believe is pure genius, despite its various detractors...an engine as amazing in its own way as the CGT V10, RS 4.0 Mezger, and current GT3 Touring...until you drive a GT3 Touring)—there is something about the lighter boost pressure that offsets the lesser power output for me (YMMV); 2) the GTS is nearly two inches wider, and feels it on the tight roads I prefer to ply; 3) I'd want PCCB, though I'd have a tougher time justifying its premium over the standard GTS brakes, which are very good—and because it would put the MSRP within spitting distance of a GT3.
Thanks for the insights Pete. Sounds like I need more seat time in the base Carrera.
Old 12-20-2017, 10:06 AM
  #101  
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Thanks Pete for bringing us along!
Old 12-20-2017, 10:12 AM
  #102  
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Old 12-20-2017, 02:26 PM
  #103  
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Hey Pete, do you know why they didn't include the S brakes as part of the T package? Seems like a no brainer with the other mechanical pieces and would avoid the high priced PCCBs.
Old 12-20-2017, 02:29 PM
  #104  
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What would it cost to actually install the S brakes aftermarket (actual Porsche ones, not 3rd party)? Parts and labor?
Old 12-20-2017, 02:50 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by racemor
Hey Pete, do you know why they didn't include the S brakes as part of the T package? Seems like a no brainer with the other mechanical pieces and would avoid the high priced PCCBs.
Comes with standard brakes, and the only option is upgrade to ceramic

its a pretty good scheme, to get people to spend the 8k on some extra brakes
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