A drive in the Carrera T and GT3 Touring
12-13-2017, 04:55 AM
#17
and even more so if the T is specced with SC and RAS
12-13-2017, 06:02 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I would like to see this review as well. But the 911T would need to have LWB seats, SPASM, and RWS to add any real difference to even compare different models. The 11lbs of weight savings and a "T" on the rear badge is irrelevant.
P.S. Ego aside (And I have a big one...albeit it is shrinking) I'd rather drive a Base Boxster on the back roads than a 918.
P.S. Ego aside (And I have a big one...albeit it is shrinking) I'd rather drive a Base Boxster on the back roads than a 918.
And we think alike on the 918 vs Boxster: I spent 1200 miles in 918 on Northern California roads, and the wow factor of a lap here and there or an onramp or two didn't translate to back roads. We brought a 987.2 Boxster Spyder along as a counterpoint to the 918 Spyder (the 981 was not yet available in North America), and it was the sweeter car on backroads.
Not in the cards for this trip, but already did that in all but body bits last summer for Issue 003: 991.1R and 991.2 GT3 MT driven back to back for several hundred miles in the Eiffel region. There's not a lot between them—though the new car is a bit firmer, keener, and with a sharper engine while the "old" car is a bit softer and obviously has all of the equipment and bits along with rarity that go with a special model.
12-13-2017, 02:03 PM
#20
Racer
This is definitely what I'd like to know. Especially if the short gears, rear wheel steering, and less sound deadening make the T worth trading in my base MT car that is just a year and a half old.
12-14-2017, 09:11 AM
#24
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
listening in...
12-14-2017, 01:04 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Okay, first report to the 991 Forum as I spent the majority of the day in a Carrera T 7MT and then a bit of time in the GT3 Touring 6MT. Tomorrow will probably be the opposite.
Wi-Fi has been pretty iffy til now, so I may have to wait until I get back to upload photos. We'll see. On to first thoughts/impressions about the T.
-First, an important disclosure: They had snow yesterday, so all of the Ts are on Pirelli snow tires (295s in the rear, which look a little lame as they don't fill out the wells). Before you groan (as I did), it turns out the Pirelli snows are MUCH better than you'd think, and notably better than the Michelin snows on the GT3 Touring. We were lucky and today it was dry and sunny—so the roads were mostly dry. Both cars feel under-tired, but the lack of ultimate traction heightens some aspects of the handling takeaways. And you wouldn't guess we were on the wrong tires from the pace today.
-The short-shifter (which is just a shorter shift rod, I am told) is a NICE upgrade. If the 991.1 MT shifter needed work and the 991.2 shifter doesn't, the T moves it into the "wow, this is nice" category.
-Our car had 4-way Sport Seats Plus with no back seats—which is standard in the Euro cars. I was surprised to find that the Sport-Tex cloth wasn't as grippy as I was expecting—as the little shiny bits let my seater slide across them. Later, I was wearing an outdoor jacket that the cloth seats seemed to "grip" better. Or maybe it was just because I filled more of the seat?
-Cool detail on the freeway: The rear spoiler pops up enough that you can now see it in the rearview mirror. You also notice a BIT of distortion in the lightweight rear window, just at the edges. I like details like these, but if you want a rear-window defroster or a rear-window wiper, you can't have one with the lighter windows.
-The T is very, very, very good on tight twisting roads. We're in the mountains in South of France, and the roads are brilliant (though very narrow) and so is the car. The narrow body really works to your advantage up here. Compared to 2,000 miles with at least 500 of those on roads not so dissimilar to these in CA, the Sport PASM suspension (which is hardly "hard") isn't THAT much different than the standard PASM (which is hardly soft). A lot of the Sport PASM advantage, imo, is an optical thing.
-Even with snow tires and Sport PASM, the Carrera T just isn't all that different than a Carrera or S. My co-driver and I just took delivery of Carrera 7MTs and started the day with a strong suspicion that we were going to be seriously bummed we didn't know about the T before we got our cars. That moved to "if I was doing it now, I would order the T, but am actually not that bummed because this is not that different," to "no way I'd make the jump from a Carrera to this if it took $XX,XXX to do so. The Carrera T is excellent, and a very cool trim package, but no 987.2 Boxster Spyder here. The T is subtle in dynamic terms. From the driver's seat, the biggest change is the shifter, and then the added noise.
-The 370-hp flat six really is a gem of an engine—for power as well as character. It is, frankly, one of the best Porsche engines I have tested in the last 20 years, up there for pleasure and usability with the 987.1 3.4, 997.2/991.1 3.8 X51, 981 GTS 3.4, and even encroaching on the 997 RS 4.0, current GT3s and Carrera GT V10 for excellence despite the fact it is a very different engine with a different brief. It trades some of the thrill of the latter for a dual nature that's very cool. If you drive it like you would a 991.1 3.4 or 3.8, it is sharp/keen/"lagless" and FAST. But you can also short shift it and ride forward on a wave of boost-fed torque if you want to get a bit lazier and maybe more fluid (if that makes sense).
-The engine noise IS nice, perfectly addressing perhaps my biggest beef with the 991.2 Carrera. I suspect part of the change may be related to the lightweight windows (Gorilla Glass, like on an iPhone—which means it is US legal for the first time), but I am going to see if I can nail down what, exactly, changed as far as sound deadening.
-Is there anything missing? Yes. A brake upgrade. The standard brakes just aren't up to snuff. Pounding up and down sections of the Monte on a very cold day, they got hot, smelly, and the pedal felt long—you just didn't trust them, and that's a bad place to be with brakes in a sports car. They never faded, but this is the first Porsche in a long while where I feel the brakes aren't up to snuff for the speed. Credit the torque gains at corner exit thanks to the 3.0tt. A swap to the GT3 Touring reminded me just how amazing PCCB is—for the pedal feel and confidence alone. the brakes become a non-issue. No way I'd order a T without PCCB...but it really should have had S brakes...maybe with black calipers?
-Is the T worth it? Depends on what you like and/or value—but we should be dancing on rooftops that Porsche has decided to make a more sporting 911 that isn't at the premium price level (read GT3+). It's a very attractive package, but I'm not sure it would sway me out of a Carrera MT or a Carrera S MT.
-My take is that most T buyers would have to have PSE, but it's the thing I wish was an option rather than standard—as the T quickly gets into S or GTS money with PCCB and some options. Making PSE an option might help drop the starting point to $99k or $100k, and I'd forego the noise to put $3k towards better brakes.
-I was just starting to think the T (like the .2 Carrera) is all the 911 I need for the road. Then I made the mistake of running a brilliant section in the GT3 Touring. As good as the T is, the GT3 Touring shreds it. It's really something I have never experienced, that I can think of, jumping right out of one to the other on the same road on the same day, and the gulf is huge as it absolutely must be to justify the price difference. If the 3.0tt is a gem, the latest 4.0 is a full-on masterpiece. The 6MT is a bit nicer, the handling/braking/etc are all at least one level higher.
Okay, those are off the cuff first impressions, with no editing. Need to mull it a bit more, but thought you'd appreciate the raw notes/feedback.
Wi-Fi has been pretty iffy til now, so I may have to wait until I get back to upload photos. We'll see. On to first thoughts/impressions about the T.
-First, an important disclosure: They had snow yesterday, so all of the Ts are on Pirelli snow tires (295s in the rear, which look a little lame as they don't fill out the wells). Before you groan (as I did), it turns out the Pirelli snows are MUCH better than you'd think, and notably better than the Michelin snows on the GT3 Touring. We were lucky and today it was dry and sunny—so the roads were mostly dry. Both cars feel under-tired, but the lack of ultimate traction heightens some aspects of the handling takeaways. And you wouldn't guess we were on the wrong tires from the pace today.
-The short-shifter (which is just a shorter shift rod, I am told) is a NICE upgrade. If the 991.1 MT shifter needed work and the 991.2 shifter doesn't, the T moves it into the "wow, this is nice" category.
-Our car had 4-way Sport Seats Plus with no back seats—which is standard in the Euro cars. I was surprised to find that the Sport-Tex cloth wasn't as grippy as I was expecting—as the little shiny bits let my seater slide across them. Later, I was wearing an outdoor jacket that the cloth seats seemed to "grip" better. Or maybe it was just because I filled more of the seat?
-Cool detail on the freeway: The rear spoiler pops up enough that you can now see it in the rearview mirror. You also notice a BIT of distortion in the lightweight rear window, just at the edges. I like details like these, but if you want a rear-window defroster or a rear-window wiper, you can't have one with the lighter windows.
-The T is very, very, very good on tight twisting roads. We're in the mountains in South of France, and the roads are brilliant (though very narrow) and so is the car. The narrow body really works to your advantage up here. Compared to 2,000 miles with at least 500 of those on roads not so dissimilar to these in CA, the Sport PASM suspension (which is hardly "hard") isn't THAT much different than the standard PASM (which is hardly soft). A lot of the Sport PASM advantage, imo, is an optical thing.
-Even with snow tires and Sport PASM, the Carrera T just isn't all that different than a Carrera or S. My co-driver and I just took delivery of Carrera 7MTs and started the day with a strong suspicion that we were going to be seriously bummed we didn't know about the T before we got our cars. That moved to "if I was doing it now, I would order the T, but am actually not that bummed because this is not that different," to "no way I'd make the jump from a Carrera to this if it took $XX,XXX to do so. The Carrera T is excellent, and a very cool trim package, but no 987.2 Boxster Spyder here. The T is subtle in dynamic terms. From the driver's seat, the biggest change is the shifter, and then the added noise.
-The 370-hp flat six really is a gem of an engine—for power as well as character. It is, frankly, one of the best Porsche engines I have tested in the last 20 years, up there for pleasure and usability with the 987.1 3.4, 997.2/991.1 3.8 X51, 981 GTS 3.4, and even encroaching on the 997 RS 4.0, current GT3s and Carrera GT V10 for excellence despite the fact it is a very different engine with a different brief. It trades some of the thrill of the latter for a dual nature that's very cool. If you drive it like you would a 991.1 3.4 or 3.8, it is sharp/keen/"lagless" and FAST. But you can also short shift it and ride forward on a wave of boost-fed torque if you want to get a bit lazier and maybe more fluid (if that makes sense).
-The engine noise IS nice, perfectly addressing perhaps my biggest beef with the 991.2 Carrera. I suspect part of the change may be related to the lightweight windows (Gorilla Glass, like on an iPhone—which means it is US legal for the first time), but I am going to see if I can nail down what, exactly, changed as far as sound deadening.
-Is there anything missing? Yes. A brake upgrade. The standard brakes just aren't up to snuff. Pounding up and down sections of the Monte on a very cold day, they got hot, smelly, and the pedal felt long—you just didn't trust them, and that's a bad place to be with brakes in a sports car. They never faded, but this is the first Porsche in a long while where I feel the brakes aren't up to snuff for the speed. Credit the torque gains at corner exit thanks to the 3.0tt. A swap to the GT3 Touring reminded me just how amazing PCCB is—for the pedal feel and confidence alone. the brakes become a non-issue. No way I'd order a T without PCCB...but it really should have had S brakes...maybe with black calipers?
-Is the T worth it? Depends on what you like and/or value—but we should be dancing on rooftops that Porsche has decided to make a more sporting 911 that isn't at the premium price level (read GT3+). It's a very attractive package, but I'm not sure it would sway me out of a Carrera MT or a Carrera S MT.
-My take is that most T buyers would have to have PSE, but it's the thing I wish was an option rather than standard—as the T quickly gets into S or GTS money with PCCB and some options. Making PSE an option might help drop the starting point to $99k or $100k, and I'd forego the noise to put $3k towards better brakes.
-I was just starting to think the T (like the .2 Carrera) is all the 911 I need for the road. Then I made the mistake of running a brilliant section in the GT3 Touring. As good as the T is, the GT3 Touring shreds it. It's really something I have never experienced, that I can think of, jumping right out of one to the other on the same road on the same day, and the gulf is huge as it absolutely must be to justify the price difference. If the 3.0tt is a gem, the latest 4.0 is a full-on masterpiece. The 6MT is a bit nicer, the handling/braking/etc are all at least one level higher.
Okay, those are off the cuff first impressions, with no editing. Need to mull it a bit more, but thought you'd appreciate the raw notes/feedback.
12-14-2017, 01:15 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
^^ Thanks Pete. Not a big surprise that the T doesn't feel particularly different to a Carrera or an S. I'm anxious to hear your (further / more detailed) thoughts on the GT3 Touring Package. That's a car that's interesting to me and certainly an object of desire. I love the "sleeper" quality of that car.
12-14-2017, 01:22 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Orleans, LA (NOLA)
Posts: 5,217
Received 2,247 Likes
on
1,029 Posts
12-14-2017, 02:07 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I'd say never say never. By that, I'm coming from a few fronts. We all know that the "fuel efficiency" of the turbo engine is a sham on anything other than a test cycle or long freeway trips—but the displacement-based tax issue in China is very real, and we have to recognize that market as a near-equal to North America...at higher profit margins. Also, people within Porsche seem to be very enthused about the 3.0tt—and many of those same people simply smile awkwardly when the noises of the 718 are mentioned.
So why would I say never say never? Well, look at history. We thought powerful engines were dead decades ago, only to see a second golden age of the sports car—and what a golden age it has been so far. And a long one. Then we thought (and were told) the manual gearbox was dead. Executives gleefully declared it. Thankfully, those who like to shift for themselves were able to drown them out. So...what goes around comes around. I think the GT4 and Spyder and GT3 lines will satisfy the urge for now, but I wouldn't write the NA engine off just yet. If anything, I suspect electric cars threaten it more than turbocharged ones do...
12-14-2017, 02:24 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Wonderful review, thanks! If you were presented with the C2 and the T at the time of your purchase, would you still get the C2 or would you splurge the extra $ for the T?